[Split] Marauder discussion

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

dosent matter if it's onto another path , the point si limited the mara tools.

He should loose pb and have all the rest or have pb and loose 1-.2 of other of his tools; wounds debuff is really not needed if you have right spec chosen in party so it dosent matter if it's take or not. ( camon 250 wounds more than chosen debuff they dosent really matter)

I'd like to know so which skill he should loose, if loose 2 skill is too much then he need to loose 1 only?

if we take out 50% crit tactic and make it core swap it with something, that way mara only loose 25% increase damage but have all the rest. Would this make it more balanced or not?

cos that build i made only make him loose in the end 25/50% of hal debuff (so he still have a heal debuff) but he have to choose if have PB and so do damage or have 50% heal drain and so play more def, he cannot do both

So your argument is the Marauder shouldn't be able to get a 50% heal debuff (and use a tactic slot for it) and be able to do decent damage?

I've been through this already in the thread, but I'll state it again. We'd be much better off buffing up the WL and the rest of the MDPS then making the Marauder bad again.

The Marauder already has to make a choice, he gives up his only reliable knockdown to be able to do damage and heal debuff. He is the only MDPS, besides the White Lion, who has to spend a tactic slot to get a non-crappy heal debuff (the WL doesn't even have an incoming, which is a problem all its own, it should get one). This means whereas Choppas/Slayers/WH/WE can run 4 tactics and get a heal debuff, the Marauder has to run 3 (reducing their damage), to get the same level of healing debuff.

The problem with your solutions is that I disagree with your diagnosis of a problem. If the Marauder is slightly too strong (which is debatable, hence this thread), then they would need a slight re-adjustment downwards (I'm much more inclined to bring the other classes up to the stronger classes level personally). What you are suggesting is essentially heavy nerfs, having to give up either your healing debuff, or damage potential. It is just the wrong approach.

If I were to do anything along the lines you suggest, I'd swap Piercing Bite for Unstable Convulsions (the 11 point Brutality tactic). That way, you'd have to decide between Draining Swipes and Piercing Bite. Choosing the Marauder to have to choose between Deadly Clutch and PIercing Bite is a huge and uneccesary nerf.

You shouldn't have to choose between PB and Deadly Clutch. You should be able to get both. The simple fact that the Marauder HAS to use Deadly Clutch to get a 50% healing debuff is already bad enough.

If you want to nerf Deadly Clutch, just remove the heal leeching.

As per your comment "you don't need the armor debuff if you run PB", you still need it in many situations. The key with PB is to you know, read the tactic. It only gives you armor pen on attacks that require a mutation (stance locked), not on everything.

So PB doesn't work on auto attacks, it doesn't work on the wounds debuff, the toughness debuff, the snare, flail, etc.. not to mention you are severly reducing your group utility without the armor debuff, and the armor debuff is the Marauders only undefendable attack.

Again, all that being said, if the Marauder does need to be tuned downwards, it isn't that much and I do not believe it requires any path tactic/ability swaps. You can do things like increase the wounds debuff cooldown to 10 seconds instead of 5, which would be more in line with the slight adjustments they need.

My argument is maraunder does what he's not suppsoe to do, if wl/mara should be anti kiters mdps they should be more durable and do less damage.

also wl/mara show a lot of anti -healer tools, that's why mara shouldn't be able to have both 50% heal tactic + 50% heal drain + 50% armor ingore that yes it's better overall than 1k less armor debuff ( auto attacks dosent matter when you ingore this much you alredy cover with damage skill the absence of the armor buff)

Utility vs damage well you cannot exept to be able to hit like a truck and also be able to boost your damage+ the other mdps damage and the other 1 tank damage.

Mara is a god in ST.... i agree that ppl talk about mostro proc dont know what they are talk about. Lol heals will not make him immortal. But if you pretend that mara do not need any nerf i cannot take you seriusly.

pb vs drawing swipe is a joke , also wounds debuff is a joke when chosen can debuff it almost the same and also do it aoe. Loose these 2 things will leave mara unchanged.
From my point of view use these 2 things is only a waste of ap when your rotation have very lowe CD or no coldown at all and all other your skills have better damage value, and you also need to re apply 1 dot+ heal debuff.

1)PB+ guillotine+25% damage increase+ 25% heal debuff+ 50% crit tactic+ st wounds debuff+pull

2)guillotine+ 25% damage increase + 50% heal debuff+ 50% heal drain/steal+ st wounds debuff+ cutting claw+pull

do you really thing that even needing to choose mara would had a heavy nerf? really???

[Luth]

DoK snare is fine since order has a lot more aoe snares which dont require any rng

True, order has more AOE snare potential. But i would rather see the BGs "Wave of Scorn" moved down the path (or switched position with an ability in another path + 360° instead of frontal cone if possible), than the DOK snare proc.

[Tesq]

DoK snare is fine since order has a lot more aoe snares which dont require any rng

True, order has more AOE snare potential. But i would rather see the BGs "Wave of Scorn" moved down the path (or switched position with an ability in another path + 360° instead of frontal cone if possible), than the DOK snare proc.

kobs can also slot to snare 3 target, order also have 2 rkd, melee can ingore snare, our proc damage is smaller than yours, we need our snare proc sy

you cannot also change it with out mess client or tooltips

[Luth]

Imo the snare proc is crap, because the DOK brings it to the group. Tanks should be the source for the best snares (regardless of single or AOE).
If the BG AOE snare would switch place with some other ability (so that it doesn't destroy viable builds, just to spec for the AOE snare), the destruction would have 2 AOE snare tanks (BO spamable aoe snare with tactic and the BG).

kobs can also slot to snare 3 target

True, order has more AOE snare potential.

order also have 2 rkd, melee can ingore snare

Range knockdowns are a separate topic and melees on both sides can ignore snare.

our proc damage is smaller than yours

How about removing the snare component from the DOK covenant and raise the the damage?

[Tesq]

no i mean in a general consideration of what may happend on the battle field, if they have r+kd and you play melee if you snare get clease it's easy see who win...

if you have a procable snare ( and is not realy a lot 25%) you can at least fill a little the gap.

[Coryphaus]

switch wave of scorn with non shall pass

[Greatwarden]

Here's a short list. Sadly, quite a few of them stem from the Mara.

1. Terrible Embrace: TE will always be useful but becomes especially telling in WB v WB situations where competing WBs create a front-line. The front-line always advances and recedes like a wave but, TE ensures that the Destro gets 3-5 guaranteed kills whenever the wave advances for them, kills that can't be rezzed because the corpses are now in the Destro back-lines. All too often, I remember equal clashes turning into complete routs because of the TE-tax. Fetch doesn't work nearly as well against fleeing targets.

TE, whilst useful, in all my years playing WAR, fired correctly perhaps 1/3 of the time I used it (granted WL is perhaps even more flaky) but is an ability available to both sides. How it is implemented in RoR will be down to Aza. However it's certainly not a Destro only ability

GW NOTE - Of course it's a Destro only ability. Fetch is sufficiently different to both work differently and have a different overall effect in WB v WB play. You might as well say that "Shattered Limbs" is the same as "Bad Gas".

- From a personal perspective, I'm sad that Xaun has to suffer "1/3" TE failure. From a WB v WB perspectively "1/3" failure is STILL 3/5 guaranteed kills per forwards-and-back. I share your hope in ROR implementation though.

2. Monstro-proc: The Mara means that Destro has the more durable front-line. From a WB v WB perspective, Order cannot make a melee train that can last longer and hit deeper than Destro.

This is utter nonsense, as I cover just a touch earlier in this thread. A Mara in Monstro in the front lines isnt debuffing and isn't doing any meaningful dmg (can he heal debuff, armor debuff, ap drain, impale, guillotine - NO), he can soak up a bit more damage whilst doing nothing useful

GW NOTE - Yeah, your response is utter nonsense. I was talking about durable front-lines and melee trains, nothing else. Your counter argument about DPS misses the mark completely.

- As for what you actually DO say: saying "My Mara can't DPS when I'm in my tanking/AOE stance" is like saying "My WH can't DPS when I'm stealthed".

3. Greenskin racial tactics: not only do the ranged Greenskins get racial tactics and the melee Greenskins get melee racial tactics but those tactics are damn useful too. The SH/Sham tactics in particular changes things so much that their whole play-style and feel is different from their "mirrors". An AM will never kite heal as well as a Sham and a SW will never been an annoying bugger like a SH.

No doubt the racial abilities that use 2 of the 4 tactic slots are very powerful kiting tools, they detract from the pure dps or heal potential of the char, without benefitting (the group) beyond the caster. Great for 1v1, fair for 6v6, good for SCs, useless wb vs wb

GW NOTE - A healing Shaman doesn't need a dedicated tank, a healing AM (that isn't hiding behind a wall AOE healing) does. That's a pretty damn significant benefit.

Whereas an AM isn't a terrible kiter

GW NOTE - That's damning with faint praise. Did you mean in DPS spec?

4. Chosen tactic crippling strikes: the ability to (AOE) reduce damage to 70% ON TOP of Challenge, ON TOP of Guard just reinforces the fact that Order melee trains don't work as well as Destro melee trains. Yes the Chosen needs to slot a tactic and yes the Chosen needs to crit but in WB v WB situations that means it'll be constantly up.

LOL

Chosen has two AoE (one of which is requires speccing 13pts into and using a greatweapon, and loses the ability to use a shield and ergo mixed defenses, making guarding a minimal roadbump at best), the other is small radius, can be blocked/parried, must land a crit and is on a 15s cd

Furthermore it doesn't stack with Challenge

GW NOTE - I wouldn't mind having this last point confirmed.

That said, it's not a weak ability in a 1v1 or 6v6 setting, but pales in comparison to all Order mDps having +50% AA haste and a free (no tactic slot required, always on) +20% critical chance

GW NOTE - SIGH. Are we really going to resort to "your OP abilities are better than my OP abilities", then spew a random list of abilities?

- Here's the thing: just because OP abilities "X", "Y" and "Z" exist doesn't mean that ability "A", "B" or "C" can't be OP abilities too. The sole exception is "X" and "A" are on different factions, are exactly the same and are just as easy to spec for.

5. BG super-punt: I love the fact that it makes BG special but the fact remains that it's one of the best tools from separating a tank from its guard target and Order has no mirror.

Indeed BG has a longer punt than IB, although would be good to know just how much more as I don't think its by as much as you may think

6. A minor point but Order doesn't really have a class that lays on the debuffs quite like the Mara and (to a lesser extent) BG does.

We also don't have a tank that buffs (single target) it's guardee as strongly as the IB
We don't have a tank that buffs the group as insanely as the Kotbs
We don't have access to 1shotKill like the SW
We don't have the incredible offensive and defensive mobility of Pounce
We don't have 2x anytime rKds
We don't have AoE Rampaging, Limb Shattering contagious AoE dots that could trigger procs (on Live anyway)

GW NOTE - It's like a squid spewing ink: spew, spew, spew. I swear it's like an instinctual reflex action to store your bile and release it without rational thought. More on that trend below.

7. Morale control: This last one is just a feeling (no research this time) but Destro seems to have quicker access to Morale abilities than Order does. Part of it is 'Destined for Victory' but Destro seems to have access to some very good morale drains (the Mara's Crushing Blows?). (In before 100 Maras pop in to say how difficult it is to spec this tactic.)

Almost no Mara will spec Crushing Blows as you will be losing out on too many of the Mara Bread and Butter debuffs and damage, but even so - I think most Destroy would gladly trade Crippling Strikes, DfV, Crushing Blows, slightly longer punt for IB, Monstro proc, TB, Celery for the things Order have that I listed

GW NOTE -Sorry, the original question was just a list of "OP Order" abilities with no justifications whatsoever, then asked if Destro had any AT ALL. Rather than shoot down or put petty excuses for each Order ability, I answered made my own list with a bit of background.

About ability spewing:

OF COURSE you can respond to complaints about ANY OP Destro ability with a list of OP Order ability and vice versa but that doesn't actually fix anything. We all KNOW that OP abilities exist and some of us are willing to accept that they exist on BOTH SIDES.

Spewing a list of OP(other faction) abilities, or saying "I don't X needs a fix, but only if A, B, C, D, Cucumber and E are fixed at the same time" only means that nothing gets done.

If ability X needs a fix, THEN FIX IT STUPID. If there's a huge impact on the amorphous ideal that is 'Realm Balance', THEN DO SOMETHING ELSE.


State of the game:
Here's the scary, glorious thing: WE'RE STILL IN ALPHA. 'Realm Balance' should be the end result of alpha testing, not something that has to be maintained each and every step. You don't 'test' a product by treating it gently in bubble-wrap, you test it by deliberately trying to break it and, by doing so, discover it's potential points of failure.

Alpha testing is ALL ABOUT doing things just to 'see how it works out'.

(By the way: I don't think we're testing much of anything at the moment since we're stuck at T2. SURELY we've extracted whatever useful information we can by now. As we know, T2 doesn't provide much useful information about end-game balance.)

[foof]

Spoiler:

dosent matter if it's onto another path , the point si limited the mara tools.

He should loose pb and have all the rest or have pb and loose 1-.2 of other of his tools; wounds debuff is really not needed if you have right spec chosen in party so it dosent matter if it's take or not. ( camon 250 wounds more than chosen debuff they dosent really matter)

I'd like to know so which skill he should loose, if loose 2 skill is too much then he need to loose 1 only?

if we take out 50% crit tactic and make it core swap it with something, that way mara only loose 25% increase damage but have all the rest. Would this make it more balanced or not?

cos that build i made only make him loose in the end 25/50% of hal debuff (so he still have a heal debuff) but he have to choose if have PB and so do damage or have 50% heal drain and so play more def, he cannot do both

So your argument is the Marauder shouldn't be able to get a 50% heal debuff (and use a tactic slot for it) and be able to do decent damage?

I've been through this already in the thread, but I'll state it again. We'd be much better off buffing up the WL and the rest of the MDPS then making the Marauder bad again.

The Marauder already has to make a choice, he gives up his only reliable knockdown to be able to do damage and heal debuff. He is the only MDPS, besides the White Lion, who has to spend a tactic slot to get a non-crappy heal debuff (the WL doesn't even have an incoming, which is a problem all its own, it should get one). This means whereas Choppas/Slayers/WH/WE can run 4 tactics and get a heal debuff, the Marauder has to run 3 (reducing their damage), to get the same level of healing debuff.

The problem with your solutions is that I disagree with your diagnosis of a problem. If the Marauder is slightly too strong (which is debatable, hence this thread), then they would need a slight re-adjustment downwards (I'm much more inclined to bring the other classes up to the stronger classes level personally). What you are suggesting is essentially heavy nerfs, having to give up either your healing debuff, or damage potential. It is just the wrong approach.

If I were to do anything along the lines you suggest, I'd swap Piercing Bite for Unstable Convulsions (the 11 point Brutality tactic). That way, you'd have to decide between Draining Swipes and Piercing Bite. Choosing the Marauder to have to choose between Deadly Clutch and PIercing Bite is a huge and uneccesary nerf.

You shouldn't have to choose between PB and Deadly Clutch. You should be able to get both. The simple fact that the Marauder HAS to use Deadly Clutch to get a 50% healing debuff is already bad enough.

If you want to nerf Deadly Clutch, just remove the heal leeching.

As per your comment "you don't need the armor debuff if you run PB", you still need it in many situations. The key with PB is to you know, read the tactic. It only gives you armor pen on attacks that require a mutation (stance locked), not on everything.

So PB doesn't work on auto attacks, it doesn't work on the wounds debuff, the toughness debuff, the snare, flail, etc.. not to mention you are severly reducing your group utility without the armor debuff, and the armor debuff is the Marauders only undefendable attack.

Again, all that being said, if the Marauder does need to be tuned downwards, it isn't that much and I do not believe it requires any path tactic/ability swaps. You can do things like increase the wounds debuff cooldown to 10 seconds instead of 5, which would be more in line with the slight adjustments they need.

My argument is maraunder does what he's not suppsoe to do, if wl/mara should be anti kiters mdps they should be more durable and do less damage.

also wl/mara show a lot of anti -healer tools, that's why mara shouldn't be able to have both 50% heal tactic + 50% heal drain + 50% armor ingore that yes it's better overall than 1k less armor debuff ( auto attacks dosent matter when you ingore this much you alredy cover with damage skill the absence of the armor buff)

Utility vs damage well you cannot exept to be able to hit like a truck and also be able to boost your damage+ the other mdps damage and the other 1 tank damage.

Mara is a god in ST.... i agree that ppl talk about mostro proc dont know what they are talk about. Lol heals will not make him immortal. But if you pretend that mara do not need any nerf i cannot take you seriusly.

pb vs drawing swipe is a joke , also wounds debuff is a joke when chosen can debuff it almost the same and also do it aoe. Loose these 2 things will leave mara unchanged.
From my point of view use these 2 things is only a waste of ap when your rotation have very lowe CD or no coldown at all and all other your skills have better damage value, and you also need to re apply 1 dot+ heal debuff.

1)PB+ guillotine+25% damage increase+ 25% heal debuff+ 50% crit tactic+ st wounds debuff+pull

2)guillotine+ 25% damage increase + 50% heal debuff+ 50% heal drain/steal+ st wounds debuff+ cutting claw+pull

do you really thing that even needing to choose mara would had a heavy nerf? really???

An issue is who said the Mara/WL are the "anti-kiter MDPS" they never were that by design, the WL just excels at it because of Pounce. They are the "brawler" MDPS classes, supposed to have medium armor, good damage (but not as much as the other MDPS clases), and good utility. Unlike the "Assassin" grouping that has light armor, high burst damage, and stealth, and the "Bezerker" grouping that has med armor but sacrifices that for very high damage. Outside of TE that Marauder is hardly an "anti-kiting DPS".

They really don't show that many anti-healer tools. The WL easiest has the worst heal debuff out of any MDPS class, the Marauder has to waste a tactic slot to get a 50% heal debuff. They actually have the worst heal debuffs out of all the MDPS classes. How am I supposed to take you seriously when you make statements like that?

Your rotations don't make any sense whatsoever and show a complete lack of misunderstanding of how the class works.

Anyway, as I said earlier, taking the heal drain out of the DC tactic would be a change that could nerf the Marauder without making them bad, but the overall point here is why shouldn't a Marauder have tools to kill people? They aren't tanks here, and people really over-estimate their utility without their damage. Wow, a wounds debuff, an armor debuff, and a heal debuff, + damage!

The Marauder doesn't need significant nerfs though, and I've explained in this thread numerous times. The WL needs buffs, as does the Choppa.

[Coryphaus]

to point out one thing

wl can kite easily even without pounce due to the pet snare

[foof]

to point out one thing

wl can kite easily even without pounce due to the pet snare

And their own snare that they can keep up 100% of the time, whereas the Marauders has a 50% uptime.