[Split] Marauder discussion

[bloodi]

I'd argue on a small private server, small scale pvp and SCs will take place just as much if not more than 24vs24.

Your ignoring the fact that 24vs24 is much harder to balance then 6v6.

Another issue is how often do you have organized 24 mans, with proper comp. The idea of group balance is classes support each other and make up for deficits other classes have. A zerg is the opposite of that it's a disorganized mess with a random assortment of classes

I'd argue that is proven as not true as soon as you step into Orvr, most people are going around in zergs, just like in retail.

And as i said, "but mom its too hard" is not an argument, no one said it would be an easy task.

And those disorganized blobs are exactly what people will take as the game, if in those disorganized blobs having x class is much better than having any other, you have a problem, you can argue "but in mah 6 man is no problem" all you want, people will always go for easy, every time and zerging is the easiest by far.

WAR was designed by Mythic the studio that gave us DAoC.

In DAoC it was possible to wipe a zerg by controlling it with CC and heavy pbaoe.

What? Pbaoe would break mezzes, the equivalent to stagger here in War. You usually do not want to pbaoe a zerg as a roam group, mezzes were by far the most important thing, you could lock people for a minute if they didnt have the renown ability to break them out of cd.

Daoc was built around mezzes, focus and mother **** /stick.

And thank god we moved out of that cc model, hell, daoc after frontiers should not be remembered fondly by anyone.

If you balance AoE for 24vs24 all that will matter is numbers and kill the idea of a small group having a chance out numbered.

Yeah its not like you can focus and blow up their healers with single target making them unable to last in a sustain fight.

Zerg busting is based on aoe very few times.

[Azuzu]

I'd argue on a small private server, small scale pvp and SCs will take place just as much if not more than 24vs24.

Your ignoring the fact that 24vs24 is much harder to balance then 6v6.

Another issue is how often do you have organized 24 mans, with proper comp. The idea of group balance is classes support each other and make up for deficits other classes have. A zerg is the opposite of that it's a disorganized mess with a random assortment of classes

I'd argue that is proven as not true as soon as you step into Orvr, most people are going around in zergs, just like in retail.

And as i said, "but mom its too hard" is not an argument, no one said it would be an easy task.

And those disorganized blobs are exactly what people will take as the game, if in those disorganized blobs having x class is much better than having any other, you have a problem, you can argue "but in mah 6 man is no problem" all you want, people will always go for easy, every time and zerging is the easiest by far.

Zergs don't pick classes, everyone gets in. You know which zerg wins.....the one for more people. (And higher lvls)

Zergs arent stacking classes, most times half the people in the zergs don't even use their group support abilities.


Also, it's easy for you to say, "but mom its too hard". Your not the one doing the work. It's easy to say, other people should have a significantly harder time....when your not the person doing anything.

Your also misunderstanding the idea of it being harder. 6v6 is easier to balance around because it has less possible combinations and thus variables.

Yeah its not like you can focus and blow up their healers with single target making them unable to last in a sustain fight.

Zerg busting is based on aoe very few times.

I'm all for single target burst and focus fire, but your very niave to the actual fighting if you think your going to focus fire down 1 healer at a time inside 40 people zerg with 6 people.

You don't have CC to control them. The most effective way to bust the zerg atm is to use terrian and AoE. You focus fire and drop people as you fall back, but for a full wipe you need AoE.

[bloodi]

Zergs don't pick classes, everyone gets in. You know which zerg wins.....the one for more people. (And higher lvls)

Zergs arent stacking classes, most times half the people in the zergs don't even use their group support abilities.

Yeah and the metagame doesnt exist and the fact that BWs aoe did more damage and have a larger area while not knocking people out of the damage area was not a problem at all ever, no one quitted the game for that.

Also, i am not a human, i am an Apache attack Helicopter with full payload, watch me deliver death to the infidels.

Also, it's easy for you to say, "but mom its too hard". Your not the one doing the work. It's easy to say, other people should have a significantly harder time....when your not the person doing anything.

As easy as is for you to disregard any attempts to balance zerg play saying "its too hard". That besides the fact i did never imply i was not willing to help.

Hell, as easy as it would be letting you keep with your "game should be only balanced around 6vs6" mantras but here i am arguing bullshit and fighting half the forum, maybe its because its something that i saw as a reason of failure in other games and one of the problems retail WAR had, hell, is even something other major developers are talking about as needed while moving away from "balance top end only", you can check discussions about it in for example, street fighter 5 which trust me, was always a game built around top level.

Your also misunderstanding the idea of it being harder. 6v6 is easier to balance around because it has less possible combinations and thus variables.

No one is saying it wouldnt be easier, i am saying that it being harder should not be an argument against it.

I'm all for single target burst and focus fire, but your very niave to the actual fighting if you think your going to focus fire down 1 healer at a time inside 40 people zerg with 6 people.

You don't have CC to control them. The most effective way to bust the zerg atm is to use terrian and AoE. You focus fire and drop people as you fall back, but for a full wipe you need AoE.

Zerg busting always has been about jumping them and killing key targets, not about how much aoe you can pump out.

For a full wipe you need to make them run. That is all.

[Jaycub]

We took a thread created from an offtopic tangent from another thread and did it again, wew lads :^)

[backrow]

Indeed, that escalated quickly.

Back on topic, WL awaits its buff. Mata shouldn't be nerfed. Those other classes just need to catch up

[Euan]

Let's balance this around 6v6 and buff bright wizards and sorcs because they would absolutely get rekt by melee train. Good derail.

What does 6v6 orvr even mean.

[Coryphaus]

Bring this back to mara heres a question i want to ask

i mara already gets nice surviveablity with tainted claw, why do they also get additional survivablity with ignore armor penetration and HoT in one stance? i mean the class has the highest medium armor in the game, the class is already pretty dam durable

[foof]

Bring this back to mara heres a question i want to ask

i mara already gets nice surviveablity with tainted claw, why do they also get additional survivablity with ignore armor penetration and HoT in one stance? i mean the class has the highest medium armor in the game, the class is already pretty dam durable

1. Tainted claw offers 0 survivability. It's the 11 point savagery tactic, "deadly clutch" that leeches heals. It's honestly, very very overrated for survivability. If you are using it to try and leech heals and stay alive, it means you aren't using your heal debuff to focus people down. Aka you aren't really being a dps. You can't even spec for this yet until we hit T3 as well. Most Marauders end up running this tactic (and hurting their overall dps) because its the only way for them to get a 50% heal debuff, unlike the rest of the MDPS (sans WL) who don't have to use a tactic slot.

This tactic does shine in situation where you throw it on someone who is being vastly over-healed, like a guarded slayer in a city siege or something. However by its very nature, if you are being granted survivability from the tactic, you aren't killing that target. A dead target doesn't provide you heals.

2. The "ignore armor pen" and "pathetic HoT", are in a completely different stance, Monstro (the aoe/survivability based stance that does horrible damage and has little access to any debuffs). The HoT is good in t1, ok in t2, and gets progressively worse as it scales terrible. In T4, its not much healing at all.

3. The class does not have the highest medium armor in the game. They have "exactly the same" medium armor as every other medium armor class. That being said, they can not have to worry about armor penetration, assuming they are willing to hang around in a stance that doesn't offer much else besides trying to stay alive or trying to spam fluff AoE damage.

4. Without the ignore armor pen in Mosntro, the Marauder is not "damn durable", it has about the same durability as the WL, but without the mobility (can't pounce out of trouble).

Regardless your initial question in akin to saying "Why do SWs get such amazing burst damage from spamming Festering Arrow, while still having greatly increased armor from assualt stance". The answer is, they can't, because you have the stances mixed up in your mind.

[Jaycub]

>deadly clutch overrated for survivability

If you are focusing the right targets and assisting/being assisted either you are going to kill the target, or you are going to be leeching a **** of heals and with a guard and 2 healers behind you... you are much harder if not impossible to pressure off.

Also everyone knows the dmg in monstro is garbage, but it's just the fact they have a get out of jail free card against physical dps. It's a great defensive tool when you need it. Yes I know the hot is garbage, its the ignoring armor pen that makes it amazing.

[foof]

>deadly clutch overrated for survivability

If you are focusing the right targets and assisting/being assisted either you are going to kill the target, or you are going to be leeching a **** of heals and with a guard and 2 healers behind you... you are much harder if not impossible to pressure off.

Also everyone knows the dmg in monstro is garbage, but it's just the fact they have a get out of jail free card against physical dps. It's a great defensive tool when you need it. Yes I know the hot is garbage, its the ignoring armor pen that makes it amazing.

Your first point is true, but it is still overrated. You get 25%, of the total HPS done to the target (50% of 50% debuffed). It certainly isn't bad, but it is overrated. Does it make you harder to pressure off? Sure, that is the point of the tactic. But lets say 2k HPS is being pumped into a target, they are receiving 1k HPS, and the Marauder, 500. It is something, but it isn't as amazing as a lot of people on these forums are saying. Not to mention, it isn't even in RoR yet as you can't get it until level 28-29 or so (I don't feel like looking). The concept that you are leeching "a ton" of heals is simply not true. You are receiving 25% of the total healing done on the target. It's good, but it doesn't make you some kind of unkillable monster.

And hey, do you remember the old deadly clutch? It was a 75% healing debuff. This new one is actually a nerf to the old one hah.

I'd honestly prefer they remove the deadly clutch tactic, make Tainted Claw a specced 50% heal debuff (like every other MDPS, WL's heal debuff should also be 50% incoming and not positional for parity), and just added some random new tactic in or whatever.

The armor pen is a great defensive tool. It is honestly really the only reason to pretty much ever swap to Monstro outside of spam AoE pad damage. But you quite literally can't do a whole lot else while you are receiving that boost to physical survivability. You lose access to any real damage or debuff potential, and you have to keep attacking and hope that you chain proc it (it certainly does not have a 100% uptime).

(the one caveat is if you start in Monstro, get an immediate proc, remembering it is a 25% chance and can't refresh itself, and then swap over into soemthing else, at that point you will have a whopping 3 or so seconds of the ignore armor pen while you can do something else).

So, lets do a hypothetical game for those who think these things give Marauder's too much survivability:

1. Do you think it would be balanced to remove the leech heals from the deadly clutch tactic, making it so the Marauder is the only MDPS who has to waste a tactic slot to do what everyone else (besides WL, which everyone knows needs a buff) can do while using actual DPS tactics?

2. If you were to change the -ignore armor pen, what you give Monstro instead? Would you rather just see the Marauders survivability gutted to a lower than WL level while having less burst damage and less mobility? Especially as most people agree that WLs could use some decent buffs/reworks?

The funny part about this thread is that the Marauder at release was actually a really terrible class. Stances hit GCD, there were no stance procs, they had tank level damage, etc.. They, after many years of people like me recommending proper changes, they finally got a series of buffs that made them a well rounded, good class. Maybe they were slightly overbuffed, I don't think so, but I'd much rather see other classes get the proper buffs they've always needed then to have Marauders nerfed because its "easier" to tune down one class then it is to fix Mythic's terrible overall balance. Just because something is easier doesn't mean it is "the best way" to do something.

I think, as a community, people should be trying to get EVERY class tweaked and tuned to where it has a niche and is a well rounded and viable class, instead of complaining that the Marauder (and Slayer) are a little better than the other MDPS classes. Using bad design as a reason to blanket nerf classes makes this a worse game. Using bad design as a reason to tweak classes properly (including appropriate nerfs where they are needed, the Marauder is no exception), is the correct approach.