WE/WH stealth limits.

[Shogun4138]

Revert the hard 30s duration/CD and 10-hit drop on Incognito / Shadow Prowler — the first two stealth changes already solved the real problems
The recent stealth changes to Witch Hunter (Incognito) and Witch Elf (Shadow Prowler) included four main adjustments:
Detection based on initiative
Cannot enter stealth while being hit
Hard-capped at 30 seconds duration with a 30-second cooldown
Automatically drops after taking 10 hits while stealthed
The first two are fair and healthy. Initiative detection rewards gear and awareness. Preventing stealth while under attack stops the old “pop stealth mid-fight whenever you want” cheese. Those changes already remove the most frustrating and abusive parts of the old system.
The third and fourth changes go too far and should be reverted (or at least heavily softened). Here’s why:
These are light-armor glass-cannon classes.
Witch Hunters and Witch Elves have among the lowest armor and survivability in the game. Their entire kit is built around positioning, burst windows, and the ability to choose when and how they engage. Once they are forced into a prolonged, unfavorable fight, they melt extremely quickly. Stealth is not a luxury or a “gank button” for them — it is their primary defensive and tactical tool. Removing reliable access to it leaves them with far fewer options than other melee DPS who have heavier armor, better self-sustain, or safer engagement tools.
The 30s hard duration + 30s cooldown turns a skillful resource into a rigid timer.
Previously, stealth duration was limited by Action Points (roughly 5 AP per second). This created meaningful decisions: how long do I stay stealthed, how much AP do I save for the opener and follow-up, do I risk running dry, etc. A skilled player could manage longer or shorter windows depending on the situation.
A hard 30-second cap with a matching cooldown removes that skill expression. It forces a predictable “stealth for 30 → wait 30 → repeat” cycle that is both less interesting to play and easier to play around. In dynamic RvR (especially small-to-medium scale and roaming), 30 seconds is frequently not enough time to wait for the right moment, reposition around a warband, or re-engage after a failed opener. The cooldown then locks you out of your core mechanic at the worst possible times.
The 10-hit drop is overly punitive in the actual game environment.
In any non-trivial fight, hits come from multiple sources: auto-attacks, AoE, DoTs, pets, splash damage, etc. Ten hits can accumulate very quickly even when the stealther is not the primary focus. This turns stealth into something that is easily stripped by incidental damage rather than deliberate counterplay. Combined with the already-fair “cannot stealth while being hit” rule, the 10-hit threshold makes the ability unreliable exactly when a light-armor class most needs a way to disengage or re-position.
These two changes stack on top of the good nerfs and over-correct.
Initiative detection and the “cannot stealth while hit” rule already address the major pain points of the old system (being unfindable for long periods and being able to vanish mid-fight at will). Adding a hard short duration, a matching cooldown, and a hit-based drop creates a situation where the classes’ signature mechanic feels fragile and restricted rather than skillful and high-risk/high-reward.
Class fantasy and role.
Both careers are thematically stalkers and infiltrators. The fantasy is prolonged, careful hunting followed by a decisive strike, not a short timed invisibility with a long lockout. The first two changes preserve counterplay without gutting that fantasy. The duration/CD and 10-hit rules undermine it.
Suggested direction:
Keep the initiative detection and the restriction on entering stealth while under attack. Revert (or significantly lengthen) the hard duration cap and remove or raise the 10-hit threshold. If a duration limit is still desired for balance, restore the old AP-drain model or give a longer fixed duration with no (or a much shorter) cooldown so that the ability remains a meaningful, manageable resource instead of a rigid on/off timer.
These two changes are the ones that most directly reduce the classes’ ability to function as the fragile, high-skill positional melee they were designed to be. The first two changes already delivered the needed counterplay. Reverting the third and fourth would restore healthy identity and playability without bringing back the old frustrations.

[F4llen4ngel]

I have to disagree with all due respect.
The initiative detection is a heavily random event rarely happens and not scaling with ini stacking. You cant gain more detection, its basically luck, and if stealther stopped moving in a good position, it disappeared instantly, doesnt matter if hit or not.
The second point, that it is impossible now to enter stealth while being hit is also not entirely true, because of WE increadibly high number of available tools to not take dmg, absorbs, parry/dodge, disrupt, quick stealth (some WE still somehow go stealth using this, maybe just latency, donno) etc.
30 sec gives every squishy out there a small chance if they see first the stealther going into the shadows, so it can move away for 10-20 seconds from that spot and then back, still risking to be jumped, to see the WE/WH coming outta stealth and attack. Rarely tho.
10 hits. WE/WH shouldnt be in a spot to be hit 10 times. imho.
And im talking against my comfort here playing them too

[Twohandernoob]

Revert the hard 30s duration/CD and 10-hit drop on Incognito / Shadow Prowler — the first two stealth changes already solved the real problems
The recent stealth changes to Witch Hunter (Incognito) and Witch Elf (Shadow Prowler) included four main adjustments:
Detection based on initiative
Cannot enter stealth while being hit
Hard-capped at 30 seconds duration with a 30-second cooldown
Automatically drops after taking 10 hits while stealthed
The first two are fair and healthy. Initiative detection rewards gear and awareness. Preventing stealth while under attack stops the old “pop stealth mid-fight whenever you want” cheese. Those changes already remove the most frustrating and abusive parts of the old system.
The third and fourth changes go too far and should be reverted (or at least heavily softened). Here’s why:
These are light-armor glass-cannon classes.
Witch Hunters and Witch Elves have among the lowest armor and survivability in the game. Their entire kit is built around positioning, burst windows, and the ability to choose when and how they engage. Once they are forced into a prolonged, unfavorable fight, they melt extremely quickly. Stealth is not a luxury or a “gank button” for them — it is their primary defensive and tactical tool. Removing reliable access to it leaves them with far fewer options than other melee DPS who have heavier armor, better self-sustain, or safer engagement tools.
The 30s hard duration + 30s cooldown turns a skillful resource into a rigid timer.
Previously, stealth duration was limited by Action Points (roughly 5 AP per second). This created meaningful decisions: how long do I stay stealthed, how much AP do I save for the opener and follow-up, do I risk running dry, etc. A skilled player could manage longer or shorter windows depending on the situation.
A hard 30-second cap with a matching cooldown removes that skill expression. It forces a predictable “stealth for 30 → wait 30 → repeat” cycle that is both less interesting to play and easier to play around. In dynamic RvR (especially small-to-medium scale and roaming), 30 seconds is frequently not enough time to wait for the right moment, reposition around a warband, or re-engage after a failed opener. The cooldown then locks you out of your core mechanic at the worst possible times.
The 10-hit drop is overly punitive in the actual game environment.
In any non-trivial fight, hits come from multiple sources: auto-attacks, AoE, DoTs, pets, splash damage, etc. Ten hits can accumulate very quickly even when the stealther is not the primary focus. This turns stealth into something that is easily stripped by incidental damage rather than deliberate counterplay. Combined with the already-fair “cannot stealth while being hit” rule, the 10-hit threshold makes the ability unreliable exactly when a light-armor class most needs a way to disengage or re-position.
These two changes stack on top of the good nerfs and over-correct.
Initiative detection and the “cannot stealth while hit” rule already address the major pain points of the old system (being unfindable for long periods and being able to vanish mid-fight at will). Adding a hard short duration, a matching cooldown, and a hit-based drop creates a situation where the classes’ signature mechanic feels fragile and restricted rather than skillful and high-risk/high-reward.
Class fantasy and role.
Both careers are thematically stalkers and infiltrators. The fantasy is prolonged, careful hunting followed by a decisive strike, not a short timed invisibility with a long lockout. The first two changes preserve counterplay without gutting that fantasy. The duration/CD and 10-hit rules undermine it.
Suggested direction:
Keep the initiative detection and the restriction on entering stealth while under attack. Revert (or significantly lengthen) the hard duration cap and remove or raise the 10-hit threshold. If a duration limit is still desired for balance, restore the old AP-drain model or give a longer fixed duration with no (or a much shorter) cooldown so that the ability remains a meaningful, manageable resource instead of a rigid on/off timer.
These two changes are the ones that most directly reduce the classes’ ability to function as the fragile, high-skill positional melee they were designed to be. The first two changes already delivered the needed counterplay. Reverting the third and fourth would restore healthy identity and playability without bringing back the old frustrations.

Quoted for truth!

[AxelF]

I'd typed out a detailed response, but honestly anyone still complaining about WE/WH nerfs is just straight up trolling. If stealthers didn't already exist and someone proposed them as a new class with the current pros and cons people would laugh you out of town for how ridiculously OP that tool set is. The fact that people are somehow complaining about being toned down to this level tells you everything you need to know.

[Shogun4138]

I'd typed out a detailed response, but honestly anyone still complaining about WE/WH nerfs is just straight up trolling. If stealthers didn't already exist and someone proposed them as a new class with the current pros and cons people would laugh you out of town for how ridiculously OP that tool set is. The fact that people are somehow complaining about being toned down to this level tells you everything you need to know.

Then maybe pets, turrets, horrors should be up for only 30sec and then a cool down for another 30sec. Those are integral abilities of those classes that use them. Its their identity. So let's nerf them. Oh, and if they get hit 10 times, they disappear.

[M0rw47h]

Man, class WAS designed with 30 seconds of stealth in mind. Thats why you got so many bushes and terrain to use as a hideouts.

Be happy your stealth duration was nerfed instead of damage.

[baselinestun]

Somewhat agreed, they should increase stealth duration to 60 seconds but add in a mechanic which reduces it by 20 for each other Witch Elf or Hunter within 100ft, I feel this would add more skill expression and preserve counter play without gutting the class fantasy, thank you for your attention on this matter.

[Omegus]

Stealth had a 30 second duration from at least as far back as 18 September 2008 to 1st October 2020 and everything was fine. Then for some reason the duration for stealth was removed in the patch from 2nd October 2020 and everything went downhill from that point onwards.

Originally Warhammer Online the game was not supposed to have stealth/invisibility at all and it's a shame it was announced for the WH (somewhat thematic) and WE (not thematic in the slightest) a few months before the game released. Even when it was added, WE/WH were not intended to be sneaky sneaky all the time: stealth was an alternative gap closer compared to the traditional MDPS sprint ability, and they had the self-punt ability to disengage. If you were able to last long enough to wait until stealth was off CD before self-punting then you could restealth while the enemy was staggered to escape a fight that went wrong.

WH/WE might have been heavily inspired by WoW Rogues (stealth and combo points), but long-duration hide and seek was something Mythic actively tried to avoid for very good reason. Stealth/self-punt = Sprint

As someone who has played many stealthers in other games, it's a massive power trip for the stealther (I loved it... it's why I played the classes lol) and endless frustration for everyone else. I'm not going to agree or disagree that WH/WE may have other issues, but long duration stealth is not the answer for a healthy game in general.

[Nelly74]

Stealth classes are perfectly fine as they are. I actually think the nerf was way too mild.

[Omegus]

Then maybe pets, turrets, horrors should be up for only 30sec and then a cool down for another 30sec. Those are integral abilities of those classes that use them. Its their identity. So let's nerf them. Oh, and if they get hit 10 times, they disappear.

Pets/turrets/daemons are career mechanics. The equivalent for WH/WE would be accusations / blood lust, not stealth. As mentioned above, stealth (and self-punt) were designed to be an alternative engage/disengage method compared to sprint abilities, and those sprint abilities have 7s duration and 30s CD.

The fact that you and others are arguing that long duration stealth was part of the class identity shows just how warped things have gotten since the change in October 2020.