Lets Theory-craft: Slayers vs Choppas

[Coryphaus]

Aye, there is nothing wrong with wh/we right now if they soloing. For group play there is no reason to pick them over choppa/ mara or slayer/wl.

This is nothing new though? It was always like that on live as well

Kobs, Ib, slayer x2 , WP + 1 healer

Chosen, Bg, Mara, chops, DoK + 1 healer

[Vdova]

Aye, there is nothing wrong with wh/we right now if they soloing. For group play there is no reason to pick them over choppa/ mara or slayer/wl.

This is nothing new though? It was always like that on live as well

Kobs, Ib, slayer x2 , WP + 1 healer

Chosen, Bg, Mara, chops, DoK + 1 healer

Sure it was the same in T2. In higher tiers WE was competitive with them thx to crit dm and high burst dmg, melee and specable ranged KD, armor ignoring attacks,magic dmg dots and proc and specable inc. heal debuff.

[Coryphaus]

Then wait and stick it out till higher tiers when you more competitive like magus are doing or get some friends or a good guild who will run what ever

Blorc, chop, sorc, we, DoK and shammy are hardly what I'd call an optimal or competitive grp but that's what my guild mates and I run cause that's what we want to play

[Tklees]

In RLH we ran kotbs, ib, WH, slay, wp, am. We would use the AM moral pump tatic and get the tanks and WH to m4 in the first min of fight and use WH no heal for 15 sec m4 and melt a healer. Gg. Optimal group isn't always the best. Sometimes thinking outside the box is what really matters in this game

[Jaycub]

Optimal group isn't always the best

:^)

I think you meant the cookie cutter meta comp isn't always the best.

There where some things that always held true no matter what though, and that is what bothers me personally the most.

>RDPS were for the most part non existent
>Kotbs/Chosen WP/DoK are mandatory in a good group
>2-2-2 meta was almost never broken, outside of swapping a tank for hybrid class or another DPS. But losing the guard is hardly worth whatever they could bring.

Probably a lot of other things I am forgetting. The main thing was on live there was no officially sanctioned competitive environment to really put these group comps to the test (data from thousands of different groups and matches, and feedback from non casuals). If they had done a 6v6 que, they would of gotten some pretty nasty feedback from certain archetypes and classes that where leftout of the meta, and they would of had to get off their asses and actually balance the game.

[Tklees]

Again some points aren't really true accurate. We would run 3 dps with 1 tank, always kotbs that you are 100% on and the third dps was a bw. He had to kite the entire fight but it kept thier dps busy while we killed healers. But you're on point that the meta was very stacked towards 2-2-2 withba melle train and having a kotbs/chosen and a wp/dok was a must. With zealot and rp being needed due to debuff cleanses. One major balance point is the mirros cleansing the same types of dots. Especially WP/dok. Wp could only cleanse outgoing heal debuff while dok could cleanse Inc. With group cleanse it became rather slanted to doks.

[TenTonHammer]

>RDPS were for the most part non existent
>Kotbs/Chosen WP/DoK are mandatory in a good group
>2-2-2 meta was almost never broken, outside of swapping a tank for hybrid class or another DPS. But losing the guard is hardly worth whatever they could bring.

No rdps b/c resolute defense = late game only melee train

Kotbs b/c 20% grp crit and other cheese kotbs things

chosen b/c destined for victory ment fast m4's

DoK/wp b/c best healers

[Jaycub]

Yes, we would swap out an IB for a DPS WP, which worked surprisingly well w/ a melee train.

I think the biggest factor contributing to the meta we have now is Guard. It's extremely powerful, it is essentially making the protectee twice as hard to kill, while the damage being siphoned over to the tank is negligible thanks to the outrageous mechanic of being able to mitigate that damage 100% through block/parry. The name of the game has become to simply kill anyone, and the tables instantly turn in your favor more than in any other game I can think of. Meaning guard becomes one of the most important tools at a groups disposal.

Enter RDPS, who become more of a liability to guard than anything else as the tank must stay within 30ft of them meaning sometimes being on the same target while also having them guarded is quite hard in comparison to MDPS. Funnily enough the only time RDPS were meta (and some might disagree) was when BW/Sorc were essentially MDPS (and thus guard was more beneficial).

CC immunities also play a role, and I will definitely get flak for saying I don't like the change at all. I don't think we should go back to old wombo combo days, but I would like to see CC become more... reliable on the whole? Something about someone being completely immune to CC thanks to immmunity timers (completely passive no input needed) is cheesy. You get into those clutch situations where maybe the only shot you have at killing someone is getting that big punt off on the guard, but hes immune because of something that happened **** 20 seconds ago... You can argue that it means CC management is much more important, but the length and just full out 100% immunities that people are getting seem more like a change to appeal to bad players than promoting good play.

[Joshwa70]

You can thank every moronic sm and bo for those immunities... also... you need to watch ppl timers if you want to avoid wasting your punt. That is on you.

[TenTonHammer]

Yes guard is powerful but many classes rely on it espically glass cannon slayer n choppas