Good DPS DoK changes

[kleinbuchstabe]

I suspect slayers and chopped would happily trade charge for self heals, cleanses, focused mind, ranged snare, full group cleanse, medium armor, full resists, an execute, hots, a rez, group bubble, etc, etc, etc.

nice theory craft build! sounds like an amazing class, i realy would like to play it!
but lets check it gameplay wise. I can only speak for choppa, dont know slayer that good.

self heals: Choppa has self heal channel.
medium armor: Choppa has medium armor.
ranged snare: choppa has a 25 feet range snare with 30%, wich is even AoE range around him.
dok has a covenant, wich COULD snare with 20%. But it comes only with a 20% chance. So on range, it COULD proc on Fist of Khanie (his "Axe throw")
WP doesnt even have that covenant. so who is the one with the range snare?

full resist: everyone but choppa (because of class mechanic) has "full resist". you cant seriously count this as a specific strength for dps dok.
execute: nice to have, but not unique for dps dok. Its 800+ base dmg.
Choppa has "weaklin killa" with 600+ base dmg, and reckless blow with 500+ base dmg, wich both get a 75% dmg boost when furious. So its stronger than doks execute if im not very wrong here, or at least on similar dmg lvl. And the target dont even has to be below 50% life, you can just push it, even spam it with rage tactics.

focused mind: its a M2 and not unique for dps dok, other dps have it too
full group cleanse: its also M2, like focused mind, so you cant use both at the same time
group cleanse (tactic): healer path. not available for dps dok
group bubble: healer path. not available for dps dok

so whats left are the rez and the hots
hots without any willpower and on top 40% heal reduce by tactics, are as great as it sounds. maybe it is good for solo play, to have an extra lifereg tik. But its not a gamechanger. In group you barely waste Soul Essence for it, if you have 2 healers in party. Maybe you use it from time to time while you runing to enemies, since you dont have a charge, there is more than enough time to hot yourself on the way But dont expect that this crippled hot will keep you alive.

rez: i cant wait to see a choppa, who disengage a melee fight alive (without charge!), runing to a save spot, to rez someone. You barely see it on dps doks! Its a realy rare and situational thing, like total emergency, when one healer is dead, and the other is too busy. Its not bad to have it, no doubt. But gameplay wise, again, dont overestimate it. I think every dps dok/wp would change it immediatly for a charge, with 1000 gold on top.

Unfortunatly this is a classic example for the misjudgement of players, who only look dps dok form outside, without ever played one on their own. From outside it maybe looks OP, but in reality its a different story. Also dont underestimate the efford it takes, to play a dps dok good. I played choppa as well, and i can tell you, choppa is a no-brainer compared to dok. You do the same - if not more dmg on aoe, with not even half the efford, focus, ressource management etc.

[Cullenn]

I suspect slayers and chopped would happily trade charge for self heals, cleanses, focused mind, ranged snare, full group cleanse, medium armor, full resists, an execute, hots, a rez, group bubble, etc, etc, etc.

nice theory craft build! sounds like an amazing class, i realy would like to play it!
but lets check it gameplay wise. I can only speak for choppa, dont know slayer that good.

self heals: Choppa has self heal channel.
medium armor: Choppa has medium armor.
ranged snare: choppa has a 25 feet range snare with 30%, wich is even AoE range around him.
dok has a covenant, wich COULD snare with 20%. But it comes only with a 20% chance. So on range, it COULD proc on Fist of Khanie (his "Axe throw")
WP doesnt even have that covenant. so who is the one with the range snare?

full resist: everyone but choppa (because of class mechanic) has "full resist". you cant seriously count this as a specific strength for dps dok.
execute: nice to have, but not unique for dps dok. Its 800+ base dmg.
Choppa has "weaklin killa" with 600+ base dmg, and reckless blow with 500+ base dmg, wich both get a 75% dmg boost when furious. So its stronger than doks execute if im not very wrong here, or at least on similar dmg lvl. And the target dont even has to be below 50% life, you can just push it, even spam it with rage tactics.

focused mind: its a M2 and not unique for dps dok, other dps have it too
full group cleanse: its also M2, like focused mind, so you cant use both at the same time
group cleanse (tactic): healer path. not available for dps dok
group bubble: healer path. not available for dps dok

so whats left are the rez and the hots
hots without any willpower and on top 40% heal reduce by tactics, are as great as it sounds. maybe it is good for solo play, to have an extra lifereg tik. But its not a gamechanger. In group you barely waste Soul Essence for it, if you have 2 healers in party. Maybe you use it from time to time while you runing to enemies, since you dont have a charge, there is more than enough time to hot yourself on the way But dont expect that this crippled hot will keep you alive.

rez: i cant wait to see a choppa, who disengage a melee fight alive (without charge!), runing to a save spot, to rez someone. You barely see it on dps doks! Its a realy rare and situational thing, like total emergency, when one healer is dead, and the other is too busy. Its not bad to have it, no doubt. But gameplay wise, again, dont overestimate it. I think every dps dok/wp would change it immediatly for a charge, with 1000 gold on top.

Unfortunatly this is a classic example for the misjudgement of players, who only look dps dok form outside, without ever played one on their own. From outside it maybe looks OP, but in reality its a different story. Also dont underestimate the efford it takes, to play a dps dok good. I played choppa as well, and i can tell you, choppa is a no-brainer compared to dok. You do the same - if not more dmg on aoe, with not even half the efford, focus, ressource management etc.

Thank you, that answer was really satisfying man, i felt a great relief reading this.

[georgehabadasher]

I suspect slayers and chopped would happily trade charge for self heals, cleanses, focused mind, ranged snare, full group cleanse, medium armor, full resists, an execute, hots, a rez, group bubble, etc, etc, etc.

nice theory craft build! sounds like an amazing class, i realy would like to play it!
but lets check it gameplay wise. I can only speak for choppa, dont know slayer that good.

self heals: Choppa has self heal channel.
medium armor: Choppa has medium armor.
ranged snare: choppa has a 25 feet range snare with 30%, wich is even AoE range around him.
dok has a covenant, wich COULD snare with 20%. But it comes only with a 20% chance. So on range, it COULD proc on Fist of Khanie (his "Axe throw")
WP doesnt even have that covenant. so who is the one with the range snare?

full resist: everyone but choppa (because of class mechanic) has "full resist". you cant seriously count this as a specific strength for dps dok.
execute: nice to have, but not unique for dps dok. Its 800+ base dmg.
Choppa has "weaklin killa" with 600+ base dmg, and reckless blow with 500+ base dmg, wich both get a 75% dmg boost when furious. So its stronger than doks execute if im not very wrong here, or at least on similar dmg lvl. And the target dont even has to be below 50% life, you can just push it, even spam it with rage tactics.

focused mind: its a M2 and not unique for dps dok, other dps have it too
full group cleanse: its also M2, like focused mind, so you cant use both at the same time
group cleanse (tactic): healer path. not available for dps dok
group bubble: healer path. not available for dps dok

so whats left are the rez and the hots
hots without any willpower and on top 40% heal reduce by tactics, are as great as it sounds. maybe it is good for solo play, to have an extra lifereg tik. But its not a gamechanger. In group you barely waste Soul Essence for it, if you have 2 healers in party. Maybe you use it from time to time while you runing to enemies, since you dont have a charge, there is more than enough time to hot yourself on the way But dont expect that this crippled hot will keep you alive.

rez: i cant wait to see a choppa, who disengage a melee fight alive (without charge!), runing to a save spot, to rez someone. You barely see it on dps doks! Its a realy rare and situational thing, like total emergency, when one healer is dead, and the other is too busy. Its not bad to have it, no doubt. But gameplay wise, again, dont overestimate it. I think every dps dok/wp would change it immediatly for a charge, with 1000 gold on top.

Unfortunatly this is a classic example for the misjudgement of players, who only look dps dok form outside, without ever played one on their own. From outside it maybe looks OP, but in reality its a different story. Also dont underestimate the efford it takes, to play a dps dok good. I played choppa as well, and i can tell you, choppa is a no-brainer compared to dok. You do the same - if not more dmg on aoe, with not even half the efford, focus, ressource management etc.

Okay then, let's go through these one by one.
Self heal. Choppa has a speccable self-heal on a 20s CD. DPS doks are spammable.

Medium armor: Choppa has medium armor for exactly 5 seconds until it reaches yellow.
Full resists: If we're comparing it to choppa, I can.

Execute: Weakling killa doesn't autocrit, but fair enough.

Ranged snare: It exhausts your rage so you have no damage when you connect. If you're running wot rules, you don't even have the aoe snare. Dps WP is even more broken than dps dok, they have absolutely no right to complain about anything.
Focused mind: Only rdps have focused mind, and guess what, they don't have charges too (or even rootbreaks). We're talking about choppa/slayer vs dok
Full group cleanse: Exceptionally useful in a group setting. Yes, dps dok has to choose one, but the point is it has two options that are massively superior to anything slayer/choppa gets.

Group cleanse: I didn't say anything about group cleanse, I said cleanse. Which they still get in dps mode. That guy is kiting you with a snare? Just cleanse it.
Group bubble was referring to m3, which is, again, better than anything choppas or slayers have for M3.
Hots: Still heals for ~250 every 3s, which is more than a grimshimmer and 3 fleshies. There's a reason people complain about regen gear. Extremely valuable in solo/smallscale play.

a realy rare and situational thing, like total emergency, when one healer is dead, and the other is too busy

Rez: When one healer is dead, the other one is almost by definition 'too busy.' If he hadn't been overstressed, the first healer wouldn't have died. On top of that, you can use focused mind to make the rez 1.5s. This is extremely valuable in high-level play, often the difference between a wipe and a reset.

And I forgot to mention it, but dok also has the largest armor debuff in the game.

I'll reiterate the main point of that post, which seems to have gotten lost:

The game already has 16 dps classes to balance, and the efforts to balance those have been a complete mess. Trying to make healer off-specs competitive has just resulted in an even more imbalanced small scale environment, wasted dev time and no discernible benefit to the game.

[kleinbuchstabe]

Actualy, if you are so convinced that dok is so superior OP, why you dont play one by yourself? In your opinion it sounds like the best of the best what mdps has to offer, so reroll and enjoy the power of dps dok with all his "unique" abilities.... You definetly should play one by yourself before you start judging, because obviously you dont know what you are talking about, since you dont have the practical experience of gameplay with this class. I played both classes, so im very sure that i have a more clear picture in comparsion than you.

The general point you tried to make was like: Look all the "unique" abilities the dok has to offer at the same time, compared to the poor weak choppa, who only has a charge... i proved you wrong allready, but i can go again one more time.

Self heal. Choppa has a speccable self-heal on a 20s CD. DPS doks are spammable.
Medium armor: Choppa has medium armor for exactly 5 seconds until it reaches yellow.
Full resists: If we're comparing it to choppa, I can.
Execute: Weakling killa doesn't autocrit, but fair enough.

What you are doing here is not comparing choppa with dps dok. You just complain about choppas class mechanic... Dont blame the dps dok for the weakpoints of the choppas classmechanic, thats pointless, because you could compare EVERY other class with the same result.
Second, Doks self heal channel also has a cooldown, and needs Soul essence, so its not spammable. Besides that the cone of fire is very small and super ez to break. Yes, the lifetap is spammable, but again, you are in a wrong theoratical understanding of the class gameplay here. It was nerfed a lot and is only useful in shield build. But we talk about dual wield dps build here. So i invite you again, go play a dps dok, spam your overestimatet life tap heal, and see how OP it is (not). You will fail hard playing this class succesfully, if you go this way.

Ranged snare: It exhausts your rage so you have no damage when you connect. If you're running wot rules, you don't even have the aoe snare. Dps WP is even more broken than dps dok, they have absolutely no right to complain about anything.

Again you only complain here about choppa class mechanic. It exhaust your rage, yes, so what? Still, you HAVE a ranged snare available on demand. I explained it allready in detail, that Dok only has it on a 20% chance, assuming he uses the snare covenant. And WP dont have anything like that at all. So what are you complaining about? You were proved wrong. Choppa has this ability, while dok /wp dont have it at all, but still you are complaining? And then just claiming "they have absolutely no right to complain about anything"??? Well... thats just dishonest and childish.

Focused mind: Only rdps have focused mind, and guess what, they don't have charges too (or even rootbreaks). We're talking about choppa/slayer vs dok
Full group cleanse: Exceptionally useful in a group setting. Yes, dps dok has to choose one, but the point is it has two options that are massively superior to anything slayer/choppa gets.

You were acting like dok would have that full package of abilities, wich was allready wrong since you cant run them both at the same time.
So now im asking you, whats better: having a charge on demand with 20second cd, or a M2 rootbreaker with 60second cd + moral build up time + blocking the m2 slot for other abilities? You realy think that the M2 is superior? Give me the charge, you can have the M2!

Next, you are claiming that these ranged dps with the M2 dont have charge abilities, as a justification. Well, lets look at their melee spec: MSH can pounce on 10s cd, wich is even better than a charge! And aSW has shadowstep, wich teleports you to the target and boost your defences by10%, on 20s cd... so also even far more superior than a charge. And on top, they have the focused Mind M2! So again, what you are claiming here is wrong. How about complaining about how OP these classes are, compared to choppa, instead of blaming dps dok for having this M2 only, to compensate his immobility? Its just a very weak argumentation and seems wrong adressed.

Group cleanse: I didn't say anything about group cleanse, I said cleanse. Which they still get in dps mode. That guy is kiting you with a snare? Just cleanse it.
Group bubble was referring to m3, which is, again, better than anything choppas or slayers have for M3.

Yes you did. You were claiming "full group cleanse". Read your own post man xD
But lets go check again gameplay wise: You think kiting is about a snare, that dps dok can cleanse easily? Well, I have a suprise for you: Since dok/wp dont have a charge, you dont even need a snare to kite them! You can just walk away, because they have no tool to close the gap, with or without snare! You get it? All you have is flee, but guess what: it resets your soul essence. And without SE, you cant cleanse. So when you press flee and get a snare: no way to cleanse. And lo and behold, it's not nearly as overpowered as it seems after all...
Beside, you dont seem to know how a cleanse works. First of all, you can not choose what you cleanse. So when you have snare first, and then a dot, you will cleanse the dot. Still snared. Then you have 5sec CD. Time to collect 2-3 more debuffs. And like mentioned before, it costs SE to cleanse, wich you cant build up while you are not in melee fight. Hmm... Still OP?

Group bubble M3: No one useses this ability tbh... First, because you will prefer the dmg+ stagger M3, to have at least some CC. Second, because you barely reach m3, you will be forced to use the M2 for survival most of the time. Same goes for choppa btw, you will probably use m1 or m2 before you even reach m3. So this is also a weak argumentation, gameplaywise.

Rez: When one healer is dead, the other one is almost by definition 'too busy.' If he hadn't been overstressed, the first healer wouldn't have died. On top of that, you can use focused mind to make the rez 1.5s. This is extremely valuable in high-level play, often the difference between a wipe and a reset.

Hots: Still heals for ~250 every 3s, which is more than a grimshimmer and 3 fleshies. There's a reason people complain about regen gear. Extremely valuable in solo/smallscale play.

Thats just not true. Most of the time the healer is able to rezz the other one. The cause of a healer death can also be bad positioning, or a bad tank who didnt switched guard fast enough, or a punt +kd out of LOS, and so on and on. Damage overload and "overstressed" healers are not the main reason for a healer death. And IF this is actually the reason, the dps dok rezz wont resque the situation in 99%.... On top of that, in most SC there is an ad group with healers as well, so the usual procedure is, that the ad group healer is rezzing the healer from the other group.
Also you wouldt focus on the rare case of rezzing a healer as a dual wield dok, buildwise. Most dont even use FM and go for the cleanse M2 instead. Maybe a shield dok would, but like i said, its a realy rare and situational case. So based on my practical experience by playing all arechetypes, I stand by my position.

For hots (actualy its only 1 hot that you can cast while moving): yes, solo play life reg, i agreed with that before. For group play with 2 healers, its like runing the heal-aura with chosen, or use life reg equipment: totaly unneccessary and wasted. So you wont use it at all in 99% of the fights in a 6man. I stand by my position here too. You absolutely overestimate the weight of it.

And I forgot to mention it, but dok also has the largest armor debuff in the game.

I'll reiterate the main point of that post, which seems to have gotten lost:

The game already has 16 dps classes to balance, and the efforts to balance those have been a complete mess. Trying to make healer off-specs competitive has just resulted in an even more imbalanced small scale environment, wasted dev time and no discernible benefit to the game.

Well, he didnt have any armor debuff in OG, and he would not need one, if they wouldnt have replaced all his spirit dmg with physical dmg. So i would prefer a reroll of the class. Delete the ADB, bring back spirit damage. Very welcome! And with this i come to your claim of balance:
The OG dok offspec was a very round thing and very strong before the devs here started their operations. With the implementation of a shield build, this class became a mess. I agree with you, that this was a waste of time across the board. Both paths, shield and duwi, are a mess these days imo.

But comparing Dps-doks with other mdps, and claiming, that they have oh so many unique tools wich make them super strong and even OP compared to other mdps classes... is just wrong. Like i explained in another thread, imo its the worst choice to pick along all mdps classes. Everything that made this class good and unique was nerfed down to the point of insignificance. And all the people in this Forum who claim that dps dok is S-tier, is op, has so many "unique" abilities, have one thing in common: They never played one on their own. So they dont know what they are talking about, and im very sure they would change their mind immediately, if they would try to play one on their own.

[georgehabadasher]

I have a dps dok and a choppa. Guess which one I play more? The fact that you think choppa charge is on a 20s CD suggests you're not very familiar with the class.

I could go through your points one by one, but I won't bother. Most of your examples of abilities (shadow step, squig leap, etc) indicate that you probably don't play those classes either. Anyone who plays the game at a high level is aware that dok/wp form the cornerstone of any competitive 6man comp.

Anyway, the point of my post was that there are actual DPS classes in waaaaay worse states than dps dok that should get attention before them.

[kleinbuchstabe]

I have a dps dok and a choppa. Guess which one I play more? The fact that you think choppa charge is on a 20s CD suggests you're not very familiar with the class.

Haha oh no, i made a mistake and said 20sec instead of 30sec. Of course that proves wrong EVERYTHING i said, and shows clearely that im not familiar with the class... Are you serious? How ridiculous is that claim...
Acutaly i realy doubt that you ever played dps dok, cause if you do, and still claim these things, you must be realy bad on it. Otherwise you would be aware, that my description of its gameplay issues have at least a point, or you could easily disprove it with your own experience, but there came nothing. And now you are just angry for being disproved.

I could go through your points one by one, but I won't bother. Most of your examples of abilities (shadow step, squig leap, etc) indicate that you probably don't play those classes either. Anyone who plays the game at a high level is aware that dok/wp form the cornerstone of any competitive 6man comp.

Anyway, the point of my post was that there are actual DPS classes in waaaaay worse states than dps dok that should get attention before them.

Yes, dont bother man. You made your points and got disproved allready, just leave it. Instead of proving me wrong, just claim that "Anyone who plays the game at a high level " is thinking different about it. Without evidence, without verification, wihtout any name. Without any own experience. I take that as the gibberish it is. And regret that i wasted my time on you. Im out.