Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[Shieldslam]

Like others have said, they disengage and leave them alone... much like regen tanks. When I play my WL i refuse to fight them too. Nothing the WE can do.

Nothing the WE can do, huh? Regen tanks you can disengage because they can't catch you (again) but WE has a slowing leap which also, for some reason, now resets itself. On top of that throwing dagger now slows during rootbreak. You USED to be able to disengage them before the patch but now instead of 1 leap you have 2 to deal with and they don't require to be used while stealthed and the game is not made for that. If you're a healer for regular dps you simply do not have the CC or resources to get them off you. Besides that, a regen Tank you can see running towards you and decide whether you want to fight or not, WE immediately starts off next to you leaving you no choice.
The reason WH is acceptable despite such high burst is simply because once you knock them away they are gone, that has ALWAYS been their weakpoint and can be used to counter them. Magical dots, absorb tactic, stealth, etc. are their own issue but the new leap has to be reverted so at least if you don't want to fight them you aren't forced to as currently WE is the only class in the game capable of this. But at the end we all know nothing will happen so we are practically arguing over nothing and instead have to accept how it is.

[Lescargo]

guys when you say "skill issue" you need to post your order killboard so we can all check how ez you can beat the bis def/regen witch elves around in 1v1.

Are you sticking around to fight them?

Like others have said, they disengage and leave them alone... much like regen tanks. When I play my WL i refuse to fight them too. Nothing the WE can do.

But nah, you want easy meat no matter what spec.

As a solo tank, I already have my share of classes within the trinity that I simply can't kill—namely, healers.

DPS players, on the other hand, are supposed to be able to kill healers easily; if they spec as tanks and fail to do so, that’s their problem.

But explain this to me: why is a fight against a stealth DPS so complicated for a tank now, when a few patches ago it was a walk in the park? Tanks are supposed to counter DPS. Why has killing them become so difficult?

Back when I made my video, I thought it was absurd for a tank to win 1v2s against Witch Elves so easily—an adjustment was definitely needed.
However, since the DPS patch, defensive Witch Elves have become far too powerful; they can almost beat a BiS solo-spec tank in a 1v1.

As I explained, DPS—and specifically stealth classes specced for defense—aren't supposed to beat tanks in a 1v1; that’s basic trinity logic. The problem is that Def Witch Elves still deal way too much damage that bypasses defenses—what with attacks that completely ignore armor, corporeal damage, Toughness debuffs, and so on.

Something isn't right here, and it needs a fix.

And don't tell me I'm looking for easy meat bro, really; I'm a tank with 1,300 solo kills. If I wanted easy meat, I would've rolled a stealth class play a gank grp OR played my tank in a warband.

[Krima]

Agree nerfing WB to be physical doesnt feel like the way to go, its thematic and final talents should be reasonably useful. I think any changes need to be much smaller steps, for me, the following would be reasonable:

* 3s ICD on kiss procs.
* Wracking Pains switched to physical.
* Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher.

Still leaves regen / absorb and auto attack bonus stacking viable, but tones down frequency of proc heals/dmg. Wracking Pains also a slight dps nerf.

See how it performs and iterate if needed.

I personally disagree with not addressing small man performance, for years it was WL, then AM/Sham, then def WE, having 1-2 classes dominate solo play has resulted in the solo scene drying up a bit, far harder to find a decent fight nowadays compared to 5-6 years ago imo.

*3s ICD on kiss procs. That's a huge nerf to the DPS spec and the core mechanic of the class. The way it is now is perfectly fine.

*Wracking Pains switched to physical. This feels weird. The tree is already focused on poison and weakening effects, so it has good synergy. All of a sudden we have a physical DoT mixed with corporeal damage skills? The way I see it now is: Carnage = AoE, Suffering = corporeal damage/debuffs, Treachery = physical damage/armor penetration.

*Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher. I disagree with this as well. Daggers should be the fastest weapons in the game, and there should be a range of attack speeds. Some builds benefit from slower daggers, while others prefer faster hits. I was actually pleasantly surprised when the Bloodlord dagger was changed to 3.0 speed—it fits the build I'm playing really well since it's focused on bursting targets down with that 1 GCD burst. I'd rather follow the fantasy of the game, where daggers are the fastest weapons. Why should daggers have the same speed as axes or swords?

Way better to keep it simple. If everyone is complaining about one specific spec that's becoming cancerous, don't overhaul the entire class—just go straight to the source of the problem. There's such a thing as tuning things down, and I think RoR should do that much more often. Creating new mechanics and redesigning skills only adds more room for bugs.

Regen WE is OP? Then why change multiple class mechanics and risk hurting the DPS spec instead of simply toning down what actually makes the defensive regen build so strong?

Kiss of Doom: 100% healing → 90% → if still too strong, 80% or even 70%. (No impact on the DPS spec.)
Sacrifice's Reward: 600 → 500 → 450. (No impact on the DPS spec.)

Those are small balance adjustments that don't require completely reworking Witchbrew, adding an ICD to Kiss procs, and so on.

Again, the defensive regen WE is a niche subclass/build that has no place in 90% of the game's content.

[Bergbart]

Believe me, I'd love to kill cloth-wearing characters and healers in 3 GCs like I used to, but that's just not how it works here.
As a full DPS, you'll get spammed with dots, then disenabled, kicked, and slowed—and then laughed at.
Unless you have stealth and can disappear.

[nat3s]

Agree nerfing WB to be physical doesnt feel like the way to go, its thematic and final talents should be reasonably useful. I think any changes need to be much smaller steps, for me, the following would be reasonable:

* 3s ICD on kiss procs.
* Wracking Pains switched to physical.
* Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher.

Still leaves regen / absorb and auto attack bonus stacking viable, but tones down frequency of proc heals/dmg. Wracking Pains also a slight dps nerf.

See how it performs and iterate if needed.

I personally disagree with not addressing small man performance, for years it was WL, then AM/Sham, then def WE, having 1-2 classes dominate solo play has resulted in the solo scene drying up a bit, far harder to find a decent fight nowadays compared to 5-6 years ago imo.

*3s ICD on kiss procs. That's a huge nerf to the DPS spec and the core mechanic of the class. The way it is now is perfectly fine.

*Wracking Pains switched to physical. This feels weird. The tree is already focused on poison and weakening effects, so it has good synergy. All of a sudden we have a physical DoT mixed with corporeal damage skills? The way I see it now is: Carnage = AoE, Suffering = corporeal damage/debuffs, Treachery = physical damage/armor penetration.

*Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher. I disagree with this as well. Daggers should be the fastest weapons in the game, and there should be a range of attack speeds. Some builds benefit from slower daggers, while others prefer faster hits. I was actually pleasantly surprised when the Bloodlord dagger was changed to 3.0 speed—it fits the build I'm playing really well since it's focused on bursting targets down with that 1 GCD burst. I'd rather follow the fantasy of the game, where daggers are the fastest weapons. Why should daggers have the same speed as axes or swords?

Way better to keep it simple. If everyone is complaining about one specific spec that's becoming cancerous, don't overhaul the entire class—just go straight to the source of the problem. There's such a thing as tuning things down, and I think RoR should do that much more often. Creating new mechanics and redesigning skills only adds more room for bugs.

Regen WE is OP? Then why change multiple class mechanics and risk hurting the DPS spec instead of simply toning down what actually makes the defensive regen build so strong?

Kiss of Doom: 100% healing → 90% → if still too strong, 80% or even 70%. (No impact on the DPS spec.)
Sacrifice's Reward: 600 → 500 → 450. (No impact on the DPS spec.)

Those are small balance adjustments that don't require completely reworking Witchbrew, adding an ICD to Kiss procs, and so on.

Again, the defensive regen WE is a niche subclass/build that has no place in 90% of the game's content.

Daggers were normalised to 2.2 speed in the last patch, they just missed 2 e.g. look at Beast Within was 1.6 speed, now 2.2. Not seeing the argument to leave a couple outside of this change, feels inconsistent.

Yep can get behind Kiss and tactic alternative changes though, but if you don't touch proc rate or 1.6 daggers, you can still stack 85% auto attack haste for high damage/healing, I don't think it would be enough personally.

[Evikon]

It seems to me that more than half the players complaining about the Witch Elf don't even understand the basis of their own grievances. One person suggests changing the Witch's Brew damage from "corporeal" to "physical" (which clearly shows they don't understand the class); then they’ll end up crying because the damage actually *increased*—since physical damage synergizes with Flanking, Masterful Treachery, and Taste of Blood. Before the patch, the Witch Elf had no trouble catching up to anyone, as the Shadow Elixir provided speed and Ruthless Assault (At the moment, the ability is significantly weakened) had great range, allowing for kills from a distance. Class changes need to be carefully thought out, because—I repeat—half these complaints are baseless drivel from whiners.
The only thing I’d suggest on my end is buffing casters—specifically, their mobility. For example, give Shadow Warriors immunity to slowing effects for 5-10 seconds after whirling pin, and increase the Bright Wizard's movement speed by 20–30% for 3-5 seconds after rooting an enemy. But all these changes are aimed solely at the Witch Elf; other, less mobile classes will suffer as a result. The Witch Elf is an assassin—casters are generally designed for group play, whereas an assassin hunts down and kills solo targets. If the Witch Elf couldn't disengage from combat, she would die constantly, and escaping from a group requires skill.

[salazarn]

One person suggests changing the Witch's Brew damage from "corporeal" to "physical" (which clearly shows they don't understand the class); then they’ll end up crying because the damage actually *increased*—since physical damage synergizes with Flanking, Masterful Treachery, and Taste of Blood. Class changes need to be carefully thought out, because—I repeat—half these complaints are baseless drivel from whiners.=

No where does it state that flanking and masterful treachery don't benefit corporeal damage. I am pretty sure they do. It is only non scaling procs like kisses that do not benefit.

Before the patch, the Witch Elf had no trouble catching up to anyone, as the Shadow Elixir provided speed and Ruthless Assault (At the moment, the ability is significantly weakened) had great range, allowing for kills from a distance.

I mean it goes to follow, that if witch elf had no trouble catching up to anyone pre-patch, that giving them a second gapcloser means that classes like shadow warriors or archmage are now impossible to kite with.

People complain about (regen) welf because it is very clearly op, and quite frankly no one wants to play vs a self healing tank, magic dmg armor ignoring, unkiteable stealth assassin.

It is also incredibly strong in scenario. It has morale 1 and then a 3s invis on top of its tankiness making it not worth focussing.

[Evikon]

One person suggests changing the Witch's Brew damage from "corporeal" to "physical" (which clearly shows they don't understand the class); then they’ll end up crying because the damage actually *increased*—since physical damage synergizes with Flanking, Masterful Treachery, and Taste of Blood. Class changes need to be carefully thought out, because—I repeat—half these complaints are baseless drivel from whiners.=

No where does it state that flanking and masterful treachery don't benefit corporeal damage. I am pretty sure they do. It is only non scaling procs like kisses that do not benefit.

Before the patch, the Witch Elf had no trouble catching up to anyone, as the Shadow Elixir provided speed and Ruthless Assault (At the moment, the ability is significantly weakened) had great range, allowing for kills from a distance.

I mean it goes to follow, that if witch elf had no trouble catching up to anyone pre-patch, that giving them a second gapcloser means that classes like shadow warriors or archmage are now impossible to kite with.

People complain about (regen) welf because it is very clearly op, and quite frankly no one wants to play vs a self healing tank, magic dmg armor ignoring, unkiteable stealth assassin.

It is also incredibly strong in scenario. It has morale 1 and then a 3s invis on top of its tankiness making it not worth focussing.

Here we go again—go check if Witch's Brew benefits from the tactics I listed and see if the damage actually increases. If that were the case, you could ramp up the damage from that ability to 900–1000, but that’s not how it works. I’ve done a lot of testing.
Only the DoTs from the tactics scale, whereas Witchbrew doesn't. I suspect it's due to the damage type; however, if the damage were changed to physical, it would make sense for the tactics to provide synergy. Otherwise, the ability would simply be pointless. Alternatively, if it dealt physical damage, adding a critical hit chance—set to half the current standard rate—would ensure balance. Armor can be stacked—it's the primary defensive mechanic—but resistances are limited compared to armor.

[Evikon]

One person suggests changing the Witch's Brew damage from "corporeal" to "physical" (which clearly shows they don't understand the class); then they’ll end up crying because the damage actually *increased*—since physical damage synergizes with Flanking, Masterful Treachery, and Taste of Blood. Class changes need to be carefully thought out, because—I repeat—half these complaints are baseless drivel from whiners.=

No where does it state that flanking and masterful treachery don't benefit corporeal damage. I am pretty sure they do. It is only non scaling procs like kisses that do not benefit.

Before the patch, the Witch Elf had no trouble catching up to anyone, as the Shadow Elixir provided speed and Ruthless Assault (At the moment, the ability is significantly weakened) had great range, allowing for kills from a distance.

I mean it goes to follow, that if witch elf had no trouble catching up to anyone pre-patch, that giving them a second gapcloser means that classes like shadow warriors or archmage are now impossible to kite with.

People complain about (regen) welf because it is very clearly op, and quite frankly no one wants to play vs a self healing tank, magic dmg armor ignoring, unkiteable stealth assassin.

It is also incredibly strong in scenario. It has morale 1 and then a 3s invis on top of its tankiness making it not worth focussing.

In my opinion, it would be better to keep the old version of Shadow Elixir, remove the new jumps, and bring back Ruthless Assault—though then you’d just start complaining again that it’s impossible to escape it.

[Krima]

One person suggests changing the Witch's Brew damage from "corporeal" to "physical" (which clearly shows they don't understand the class); then they’ll end up crying because the damage actually *increased*—since physical damage synergizes with Flanking, Masterful Treachery, and Taste of Blood. Class changes need to be carefully thought out, because—I repeat—half these complaints are baseless drivel from whiners.=

No where does it state that flanking and masterful treachery don't benefit corporeal damage. I am pretty sure they do. It is only non scaling procs like kisses that do not benefit.


Patch notes here on the forums?

Listen, over the years Witchbrew has already been nerfed several times. Flanking, TOB, and MT used to work with Witchbrew. Then, after MDVP made forum posts for over 100 pages and reported it on the bug tracker, not even Frenzied Mayhem worked with it anymore for some time.

They also changed the formula so it scales better with between Strength and the DB, instead of always using the flat tree damage regardless of how low your Strength was.

I agree with Ekivon: class changes should not happen this often, and they should be thought through very carefully.

Those of you who want Witchbrew changed to physical damage don't seem to realize you'd actually be buffing it because of all the physical damage modifiers available. On top of that, it would also benefit from Bleeding Edge, which already stacks with EOIP. Suddenly you'd have PA + Witchbrew hitting while ignoring up to 75% of armor if specced correctly, and you'd just be creating another balance problem.

+15% from Flanking
+15% from TOB
+25% armor penetration from Bleeding Edge
If it becomes physical, I assume it could also crit? (Increased Pain)
+5% from the Bloodlord weapon

If Witchbrew changes from corporeal to physical, wouldn't the hit also start proccing Kisses and potentially other effects? Nobody really knows what interactions and bugs that could introduce. We'd probably end up with another balance issue that stays in the game for years until someone notices it and the complaints about WE start all over again.

Witchbrew is fine. Leave it the way it is.