BUFF the BG already

[Hellfireuzu]

If tanks are now DPS and healers are DPS what's the point of even playing a DPS class? You guys just want the good stuff without the bad stuff . Typical wow players.

DPS will still be a better damage dealer,.. It has its own set of abilities. Morale abilities that complement the burst it can deal. You usually have some movement kit at your disposal and can pick between AoEing and ST. While one spec on tank that allows you to close some of that gap seems like too much?

Honestly, I am okay with neither healer nor tank being able to deal damage but then make those different builds make sense somehow. I don't understand that while one can be versatile in all groups and multiple roles with various play styles while the other gets *check notes* one build that is correct .. and don't be confused when nobody plays said class because the can't have any "fun" on time to time occasion..

Maybe we misunderstand each other though..

I am advocating for two different things.
1/ Make the 2h Tank builds somehow useful (Pick your poison here) <-- And I am talking about all 2h tanks builds actually. If we don't want them to deal damage, they need to offer something else.
2/ Buff BG in some aspect so it has some edge at least in single direction over other Destro tanks because currently it's simply the "wrong pick" (If he had better survivability or better damage while speccing 2h, so be it. he was still the "worst SnB tank") after stat reworks and skill adjustments it's simply not good.

[gisborne]

If tanks are now DPS and healers are DPS what's the point of even playing a DPS class? You guys just want the good stuff without the bad stuff . Typical wow players.

I don't get this perspective. The point of playing a DPS class is to fulfill a DPS role in a group, just like it is now and just like it has always been and always will be. No one is ever going to be looking for a tank as a DPS spot in a group because guess what, even the most DPS-y of tanks isn't close to a real DPS class. Tanks getting more DPS is not even a remote threat to that.

[gisborne]

Honestly, I am okay with neither healer nor tank being able to deal damage but then make those different builds make sense somehow.

I'd be ok with that too but the devs of the original game and the devs of this game have chosen to not go that way. It's too bad really because as a healer enjoyer the variety of heals is distinctly lacking. For example, every single RP mastery ability is either DPS oriented or neutral. Such a waste.

[Alubert]

I would definitely prefer that the BG receive some additional utility abilities that affect the entire group or a single member, rather than damage. The BG is the only tank on which I use “Rugged” because there aren't any other good utility tactics. Most of them are only for the BG's own survivability.

[lumpi33]

I would definitely prefer that the BG receive some additional utility abilities that affect the entire group or a single member, rather than damage. The BG is the only tank on which I use “Rugged” because there aren't any other good utility tactics. Most of them are only for the BG's own survivability.

I'm surprised that people are asking for more utility. The BG has a ton of utility. They have the strongest kd in the game with 5s. They have mega punt, they can have 5s cool down reduction for the group, they can have 50% block shield channel, they can have 25% block or disrupt with only one tactic at full hate, they have self absorbs, they can have a 45% (percent!) tough buff for 20s, they have armor and other debuffs as well, aoe root, they have one of the best M1 to self heal and lots of other good stuff. What else do you want? Sounds like a hell of a toolkit.

Bottom line: They can be build ultra defensive. If you give them more damage it would be broken op.

[Shieldslam]

I'm surprised that people are asking for more utility. The BG has a ton of utility. They have the strongest kd in the game with 5s. They have mega punt, they can have 5s cool down reduction for the group, they can have 50% block shield channel, they can have 25% block or disrupt with only one tactic at full hate, they have self absorbs, they can have a 45% (percent!) tough buff for 20s, they have armor and other debuffs as well, aoe root, they have one of the best M1 to self heal and lots of other good stuff. What else do you want? Sounds like a hell of a toolkit.

Bottom line: They can be build ultra defensive. If you give them more damage it would be broken op.

They never will be broken OP with their current kit. Why? Because in smaller fights (1v1, 1v2) it takes quite some time to reach 100 Hatred and that's where you want, or even need to be. They have to either go defensive of offensive. They can't have both because they require different tree investments and stats. DMG is entirely focused on a crit build, which is what the dps tree provides you with - while tank focuses on toughness/avoidance from middle. Can't get all the things from dmg tree + parry/toughness from middle because you're short 1 point. On top of that, typical tank problem, if your damage is not magical you'll have to invest into WS which already is a build killer because you can't get high str/ws/crit/defense on a tank. Even if BG goes full glass with Focused offense etc. their damage is not threatening especially at the start without Hatred because armor debuff needs 75 or 100 to be meaningful.

Regarding all the utility: Yes on paper BG has amazing utility and debuffs/buffs. But in practice it doesn't work (partially due to GCD increases) because by the time you're done buffing and debuffing your stuff is already running out again, that is if nothing gets parried in the first place. Look at the crit tactic, it's 15% for 5 sec after spending Hatred. 5 sec, of which you lose 1.5 sec because you're on GCD right after using a spender, leaves you with 3.5 sec which is exactly 2 abilities. So in theory every 3. ability has to spend Hatred, sometimes you might not even gain enough to do so and on top of that you want to be at 100 so you spending all the time means you will have less potent abilities and less parry/block/disrupt from tactics. Every other tank gets casual 10-20% crit for no effort at all. Another thing is let's say you're at 100 and now use KD, move behind your target to Furious Howl+Crimson Death which blows 60 of your Hatred away and you're now at 40-50 which means a lot of defense from tactics is gone. You're essentially just trolling yourself constantly by spending Hatred when you don't have it back to full almost immediately. Every spender feels like a no-no-don't-press button.
Megapunt isn't even great in comparison anymore. It goes the furthest but has the least airtime compared to other tanks so less CC. Also lower arc so it's harder to punt someone up a hill or over an obstacle. Block channel gets interrupted by any challenge which is why nobody uses it (same for BO channel). Self absorb is also around 600 when you don't invest on right tree (can't do that when you're DPS) + costs precious Hatred and has 10s CD.
I don't play BG anymore since tank rework but even if their dmg was buffed by 50% across the board they still wouldn't be the menace people think of. The channel specifically is just so sad to use compared to other tanks. Plus it's a tank, just walk away from them lol.

[lumpi33]

They never will be broken OP with their current kit. Why? Because in smaller fights (1v1, 1v2) it takes quite some time to reach 100 Hatred and that's where you want, or even need to be. They have to either go defensive of offensive.

Many other classes have that slow ramp up as well. BW/Sorc/IB/Slayer/Choppa. Just because it is bad in 1v1 or 1v2 doesn't mean it is bad in group or warband play where you can easily reach full power.

Regarding all the utility: Yes on paper BG has amazing utility and debuffs/buffs. But in practice it doesn't work (partially due to GCD increases) because by the time you're done buffing and debuffing your stuff is already running out again, that is if nothing gets parried in the first place. Look at the crit tactic, it's 15% for 5 sec after spending Hatred. 5 sec, of which you lose 1.5 sec because you're on GCD right after using a spender, leaves you with 3.5 sec which is exactly 2 abilities.

Again, same with other classes. Everybody has the same GCD. BWs/SWs for example have a 2s kd giving them only 0.5s to apply one other spell.

Every other tank gets casual 10-20% crit for no effort at all.

Not true. SMs/Blocs have a similar crit tactic. 10% while in improved stance, 20% while in perfect stance. They get only 1 hit with that crit chance (or a couple if channel). Then it resets to 0%.

Long story short: With all the tools they have they would have to take something away in order to gain something else. They are very powerful in defensive builds. Their bonuses at 100 hatred are freaking huge. In the end it is a tank, a very tanky tank. Don't play tank if you want to do damage. You guys are asking for more pew pew while being able to keep all the goodies. They already made that mistake with Maras. They are now doing WL/Slayer like damage but are still very tanky. It is breaking the balance.

[Hellfireuzu]

@Shieldslam - summarized the problems very well, couldn't say it better myself.

@lumpi33 - Since you don't clearly read, then I will just mimic you with "yOu WaNT mOrE pEW pEw..."
Otherwise it would be clear to you that "all the goodies" are really only "goodies" on paper and not working correctly.

[Shieldslam]

Many other classes have that slow ramp up as well. BW/Sorc/IB/Slayer/Choppa. Just because it is bad in 1v1 or 1v2 doesn't mean it is bad in group or warband play where you can easily reach full power.

Yes obviously some other classes have ramp up time as well. And for me specifically I'm only interested in small scale so I'm focusing on that. Besides, even if BG would get a meaningful dmg buff (like the 50% I mentioned) they still wouldn't be WB viable on 2h so none of this really applies to grp/wb anyway. The goal is to make the class feel more fluid and give it a better feeling with consistent uptimes.

Again, same with other classes. Everybody has the same GCD. BWs/SWs for example have a 2s kd giving them only 0.5s to apply one other spell.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up ranged dps KD which clearly is used for kiting and has different situations it's good in. The issue is the GCD making it so your buffs run out by the time you are "ready" to actually do some damage. It just takes too long to apply most things. The class relies on all those buffs/debuffs and you can't just start a fight without anything, simply logically the class is weak without otherwise it'd be too strong with all those.

Not true. SMs/Blocs have a similar crit tactic. 10% while in improved stance, 20% while in perfect stance. They get only 1 hit with that crit chance (or a couple if channel). Then it resets to 0%.

Come on now, it's not that hard to understand. SM/BO get that passively with no effort which is exactly what I said, nothing you have to really do to get that crit. On top of that, it's not too uncommon to skip low/green/first stance plus by far the hardest hitting abilities for those classes (channels) are in red/high/3. stance so they benefit from 20%. If anything then Knight has a bad one because it's only 10% on a regular defendable ability. Still, BG crit tactic just doesn't last long enough and makes it feel extremely clunky and stressful to play because it forces you to spend Hatred to keep it up (while your entire build relies on crit) even if you can't do that right no. Let's say you're at 90 Hatred and crit buff runs out, do you spend Hatred and not get to 100 or wait a bit and then spend it? In theory it sounds like an interesting choice but it really isn't because it simply feels terrible having to doubt every time you can/should press a spender.

In the end it is a tank, a very tanky tank. Don't play tank if you want to do damage. You guys are asking for more pew pew while being able to keep all the goodies. They already made that mistake with Maras. They are now doing WL/Slayer like damage but are still very tanky. It is breaking the balance.

This thread is not about the tank aspect of BG, it's about its own anti-synergy between the skillset and laughable dmg output. Why come into a thread about DPS tank just to tell people to not play one if they want to do damage? They are incredibly tanky due to all the stacking buffs they get, no doubt, but some people simply enjoy the fantasy of playing a 2h tank and would like for it to be even remotely viable which it hasn't been for a long time. Why can't those people have fun as well? Why is tanky tank the only "accepted" way to play?
As mentioned I stopped playing BG right after tank rework so "you guys" doesn't apply to me and technically I couldn't care less about the class (in fact my main is on Order so I'd face BGs with all the "goodies" you speak of) but I just find the state that they're in quite sad on behalf of BG players or those interested in playing one.