[Magus] A unique class… but one that deserves a real refresh in group play

[Martok]

I’m going to reply calmly...

Yeah, ok.

That said, your response rests on a fairly simple contradiction: you openly admit that you do not really know the Magus, while at the same time taking a very confident stance in order to mock a specific criticism of that class. From that point alone, there is already a clear issue of consistency.

To begin, your use of the term mockery is misplaced. My history as a member of this server and this community, a history which dates back to 2016, is united by a common thread. Humor. During my time as host of Realm Watch I employed humor in a attempt to render the show more entertaining, and most people got it. When I stream I do the same. In fact, watch one of my Warhammer videos with the word 'humor' in the title as a supporting example of my assertion. Watch one of the Lightning Round clips, I mean damn. I understand humor is subjective and not everyone will appreciate every joke made. But that does not alter the fact they were jokes. Mockery implies a direct attack on an individual in the attempt to belittle or demean them. I made no such attempt in regard to you. I made a few jokes, and you will find the same type of humor is almost every video I craft. You and Wonshot would get along famously however.

The point I raised was never “can you do something with a Magus in absolute terms?”

Yeah, it kinda was. How would "allow(ing) certain abilities to function better in group / warband play" not constitute an absolute change to the Magus class? By definition changing how Magus abilities function changes how the Magus class functions, and I don't have to possess a deep philosophical understand at the quantum level of every ability of every class, including the Magus, to understand that. It just is, just like Vikings fans sorrow is, and Elvis isn't. Your request, however, given the nature of the server, is a perfectly fine request. My response to any such request is, as I stated in the video, based on the history of the server in regard to other players making similar request in regard to other classes. Such as the Witch Elf, but I digress.

The point is the consistency of certain Magus mechanics in an organized warband setting, meaning a real environment with pressure, movement, interrupts, focus, coordination, and actual group constraints.

All combat settings in this game occur in a real (well, in context of the game) environment with real pressure and actual movement disrupted by interrupts while being focused via coordinated effort by a group of two or more consistent with the abilities at their disposal. Your point is moot.

And that is exactly where your reasoning falls apart: you mix different contexts, different classes, and different gameplay logics that are simply not comparable.

My reasoning is as stated. As a cosmic truth coursing through and binding the history of this server, every player of every class wants their class buffed and/or altered in some form which, by default, serves as a buff while simultaneously wanting the other guys class nerfed. That is the essence of every such argument proffered in regard to specific classes. And with all due respect, because you did a fine job with it, your request is no different.

One more point:

...you minimize the problem while also proposing changes yourself to improve the class.

The only ability I specifically mentioned was the Magus Disarm, an ability which, in regard to a Magus, makes as much sense as Rosie O'Donnell becoming First Lady. Removing that ability (which will never happen, I know) would not represent an improvement in the minds of Magus players. The suggestion the disarm timer be increased to five seconds? What if I proposed the knock-down timer for Sword Masters be increased to five seconds. Do you think the player-base at large would all just nod their heads up and down in agreement?


Here is a philosophical question for you. In essence, what is the difference between these two request?

1. Buff my class.

2. I believe there are certain abilities inherent in my class currently subject to alteration, alterations which would serve to render them more effective thus allowing for more flexibility while playing in an organized warband in a dynamic environment while enhancing both the lethality and survivability of my class while fighting in said environment.


Thanks for your time.

[buerdig]

So I have been running controlled tests on dummy past few days since this thread started and in case the Devs are readings. Variations of different builds, different sets, different weapons. This isn't the best testing format since players are going to be buffed, healed, hitting you, CCs etc.

Mist is terribly weak at full middle investment. It does not seem to get disrupted and it helps build morale but this why order also loves standing in it. Firestorm makes the build without question and investing another point that would have been spent on mist is better spent on maxing middle or Seed of Chaos. Seed of Chaos is excellent if not disrupted. The damage tic hits harder and the detonation AoE hits harder than the time it would take for people to get out of mist. Flamer at max was ok, pink horror still did more damage even though I maxed the middle tree. I understand the scaling is meant to be inbetween blue and pink so it's ok. There just isn't anything special other than it benefits from glean magic where pink is elemental. Rend winds is nice due to the 3 hits as spammable but lash just does so much more damage.

Flickering Red Fire, this ability I will never understand, it's slow, there is three talents dedicated to this and none make using it worth it. Even with the disrupt talent, I would rather cast Winds twice. Withered soul and its talent work great, SVF is a nice by itself but has too many tactics like FrF; this is assuming I'm speccing into the heal and using the 7 second CD; both not worth the investment for getting a self-heal.

Infernal blast, with the SoV crit proc and taking the extra 50% crit damage bonus does not feel that amazing when compared with Surge of insanity. This does benefit and it hits like a truck; Infernal pain tactic, I just don't see the benefit as the DoT is just so weak. Warpflame? It looks cool but even the blue demon does more damage. Agonizing torrent is a better version, and you can move while doing it if we really want to use a PbAoE.

I'm not going to go into Rift as we already discussed the issues, as well as CCs. Few things after testing and reading about Engi and checking out different destro classes. Here are some things I hope are noticed along with what else has been posted by others.

• 1. Other than Pink horror and Withering (-5 crit chance, +15% dmg/-5 disrupt) we have no form of lowering attributes outside of gear. Engis are able to lower armor, increase build time, lower dodge and block. We should be able to have some sort of AoE stat debuff considering the only ones we have are single target and easily cleansed.
  
  2. Having to pick between 15% crit for havoc or changeling; we typically are using the base skills from both and Engis are able to take a talent for universal Crit chance if they are within 100 ft of their turret. Both are the same point investment except we have to split for it only to work on half our spells.
  
  3. So many tactics are just useless or can be improved on. 160 toughness tactic is waaay to high and is mediocre that it's even there. This should be a buff to our group or anyone near our pet like the AP regen is. Both Engi/Magus have resummon and instant pet tactic. Why not just include the stack not resetting into the instant summon? As long as the pet doesn't die, switched, let us be able to keep our stacks instead of having to use resummon when we are already invested into the tactic.
  
  4. Pets really should feel unique as they were once before. As I pointed out, pink horror provides the only utility, best damage out of the 3. There should be more of a choice between Pink horror which provides something other than DPS or just plain PbAoE DPS, Mid range AoE DPS.
  
  5. Gear shouldn't be the answer to our issues. You provided a good utility in the Dark Promise gear but having to wear a full set of PvE gear to bring some utility isn't really a solution.

I feel like for the most part, the feedback has been constructive so hopefully we can provide insight.

[Starx]

The only ability I specifically mentioned was the Magus Disarm, an ability which, in regard to a Magus, makes as much sense as Rosie O'Donnell becoming First Lady. Removing that ability (which will never happen, I know) would not represent an improvement in the minds of Magus players. The suggestion the disarm timer be increased to five seconds? What if I proposed the knock-down timer for Sword Masters be increased to five seconds. Do you think the player-base at large would all just nod their heads up and down in agreement?

You ignore my reasoning completely, disarm is not a hard CC and KD is. And it does come off as mockery when you just laugh at the idea and dont expand further or address points made.

Aside from what I said earlier, we have 5 sec silences in the game, with no conditionals, while not hard CC it's much better as its not only a defensive but strong offensive tool when used on healers not to mention even if the target you are trying to kill has immunity its still useable on someone healing them.

Tbh Id rather see a new class of immunity for certain weaker CC that disarm woukd fall into, but asking for +1 sec is more realistic than that or getting it removed for a new ability entirely which would also be preferable.


@OP he was more saying your writing sounds good but lacks substance, lawyer speak etc.

But Someone doesn't need to play a class to be able to discuss balance around them, I dont agree with you there. I've never played IB, but ive sat in discord with mountain for many hours way back before IB was buffed and we tried to figure out how to make it worth running over SM+Knight, he was a great tank player and that was his baby, but he never got to play it much and the reasons were layed out plainly for everyone part of those discord calls many times. Any one of us could have easily made a case for IB buffs in terms of what they needed to be competitive back then.

I'd say more but im on my phone and afraid this threads gonna turn into insult flinging at some point lol.

[Martok]

You ignore my reasoning completely, disarm is not a hard CC and KD is. And it does come off as mockery when you just laugh at the idea and dont expand further or address points made.

Starx, my man.

There are two means by which I could have stated I disagreed with your point made. One would have been to simply state, in a bland but direct manner, I disagree with your point made. The other would be to employ humor in the form of Satire. I chose the latter because, you know, never pass up the opportunity to insert a bit of humor into the proceedings.

I have read a number of your post. I quoted you prior in an earlier edition of The Reckoning Monologues. I know you are an intelligent guy and you make good points. In this case, all that happened was I disagreed with your point and chose to say so by contracting out to Dr. Evil. There was no insult meant and I hope you won't take any.

But Someone doesn't need to play a class to be able to discuss balance around them...

Case in point. I agree. As for the thread devolving into a shouting match I mean I suppose that is the ultimate doom of all threads but I don't see that here yet. Debate is a point-counterpoint, and so far that is what is occurring here.

[Cyrylius]

Firstly, can we agree on ignoring martyr's contributions to this discussion? He and his very valuable attempt at satire have already taken half of this thread's volume without really bringing anything worth discussing with them. He also has an infuriating style of that one teacher who really thinks himself eloquent and amuses himself by creating posts that focus on stylistical quirkiness in favour of factual correctness. And since he will definitely attempt to defend himself with some form of personal attack at me dressed in overly complex vocabulary I'll just say that unless he can match me in my first language (Polish, for anyone interested) I'm not going to treat those attempts seriously. That said, contrary to what the man himself said, he is not famous in community for humor, he's famous for being insufferable. I don't provide examples and refuse to elaborate.

Secondly, but more importantly, I do in fact have a bis AoE magus that I no longer play. Let's discuss the ST spec first: it's too stationary. This issue was once alleviated by pink pet range buff, but that's no longer in the cards. All the destro classes have more versatile burst rotations: they can move while applying damage and their setup is shorter. Sorc and zealot get their timed explosion abilities, shammy gets the effect layering and utility, squig gets insane burst. Magus has only two dots, one of them being on 20 seconds cd, and one rather limp instant cast - everything else requires an oftentimes lengthy casting time. It means that you don't really mesh well with any other destro dps, and until your 15% tactic on dot starts being valuable, somehow, for many rdps, you're indeed the bottom pick for ranged groups. There are really two solutions, and I don't want to make magus more mobile since that's against the idea of the class. I think balance should bring back magus as the range focused class. For a class supposed to be Tower your only range based advantage is extra 50 feet range on boc, distance that can be covered within its (stationary) casting time. 125, 150 and 175 feet were the values with pink pet, and while I'm not saying that was a good system I do think giving those classes (engi is a rather close mirror other than damage type) clear range advantage that pushes players towards more sniping oriented playstyle is the more interesting choice. It should be remembered that the first and foremost solution to ranged pressure is utilising the terrain, and magus is uniquely easy to outplay since it's unable to move and deal damage in any meaningful volumes (in the context of ranged ST damage, to address any solo players. Dots aren't real damage if you have a healer). It won't fix all issues with the class, but there will be a point where ranged gives you an opportunity to actively assist more mobile dps while they chase the target, as convoluted of a solution to this problem as it would be I wouldn't mind having the class being genuinely different to other ones in how it sets up kills.

AoE magus has always been a problem. It used to be very tricky to play in orvr and blow all the other options out of the water in perfect circumstances. Now, that was a result of a bunch of bugs and unintended interactions/misvalued effects, with pandemonium tactic, blue pet aoe modifiers and mist crits being the most notorious examples. That said, without those we get to a weird situation where even with the full pet stacks you don't perform better than the sorc since the dark magic mechanic gives much more damage than 20% pets bring. And that's with being stationary and free casting dots on blob in Fort, something magus should excel at. AoE options for the class used to be lash, mist, blast, two pulsing dots and occasionally firestorm/m2. Notably, there was no real right or mid tree difference: right tree was and still seems to be focused on support abilities of various kinds: wounds buff, rift and proximity tactic that you use in all aoe builds anyway. What I'm getting at is, someone seems to have designed the class with middle tree revolving around mid range (~50 feet) AoE, right tree with close quarters combat and left tree with sniping in mind.

Why this doesn't work in AoE builds: right tree has awful ability designs and middle tree gets too few of them. Someone was obsessed with pbAoE, which is not a good template. It kind of works for sorc which already requires copious amounts of support and gives back ungodly damage in return, but magus cannot provide the same since pet is impossible to play around even with the same level of support received. On the other hand, middle tree not only has less damage across the board, it also lacks buttons to press. Mist, gleam magic, pandemonium, seed of chaos, firestorm takes 15 seconds to cast, then we can cast pandemonium again and use those same abilities as they go off cd. I'm not even mentioning the stationary component of firestorm: it's irrelevant to the fact that there are no AoE abilities to cast and our damage clocks at about 570 spirit for anyone standing both in mist and in firestorm. Which would be impressive if not for the remaining 16 seconds or your damage not stacking with other magi or half of it being incapable of crits. You get a cute little spike with seed of chaos, but your dps is laughable compared to other dps classes, and the only real upside is how little support you need to output it. Let's double down on that. Make pandemonium, seed of chaos and gleam magic shorter duration but higher damage abilities, so the gameplay becomes more interactive. Make it feel like the class actually requires you to play it and give you good damage in return. Mist is fine where it is, since it does do very well in stationary fights, but if you want to change it maybe reduce it to the last two stages and add some debuff on top? Reduced morale generation would be a clever one, for instance. Now, the right tree: it's already shoehorned into being awkward support since its defining ability is rift, so let's double down on it. Move first tactic to core, and rework one of the useless tactics (fine, i can give examples: unearthly shriek, flame's kiss, swift flames, infernal pain) to be some build enabling tactic that gives flat bonus to damage while you have no pet summoned and some form of mobility support, whether immunity countermeasures like SoS or movement speed boost or maybe interacting with snares. It can be named Knight of Immolation or something. Then swap demonic armor and demonic resilience, so that right tree builds will be significantly more durable and valuable for the group than other ones. Now, the damage bonus is my dream but even without it the idea is to make magus tanks enough to use rift and play like a melee dps in regular warbands even without reaching the same damage output as other dps classes. 5% extra damage would be nice but movement enough makes it very viable for a melee ball since demonic lash is still very good spammable cleave. Now we have three different tree based builds for the class: long range sniping capable of keeping up with other destro classes at range, AoE leech slash funnel specialist and defensive support slash dps reliant on getting value out of unwieldy pbaoe abilities with subpar damage but bringing strong utility options in return. I feel like this could be balanced in 1, max 2 patches after release.

Now, I will end this long exercise in creativity by saying I don't play magus a lot nowadays. I tried serval times, it didn't feel enjoyable to be in any configuration and so I dropped the class, currently gathering dps set on my zealot. But I do know what I disliked and I played a bunch of other classes (although sadly neither sorcerer nor engi, two of the closely related classes) enough to maybe pitch some ideas on how to approach different magus trees.

P.S. yes, I am aware the tactic I mentioned would make the class ungodly in 1v1. That's not my problem and I'd be grateful if any 1v1 person reading this can give me feedback on how to implement tactic that works in similar way without making you upset.

P.P.S. I'm ranking the infernal pain tactic at the lowest tier of utility while I do use it in middle tree specs. That's not hypocrisy, that's a sad proof of how bad the ability depth is since taking this tactic means I can press another button before I run out of the ones that do something.

[chookette]

After reading both of your posts, what I mostly find interesting is that you come at the issue from different angles, but still end up reaching a pretty similar conclusion.

Overall, both of you are saying that the Magus problem is not just about a few badly tuned numbers. The real issue is more about feel, coherence, and the overall direction of the class. And on that, I honestly agree with both of you.

What works well between your posts is that Buerdig mostly highlights what does not feel good in the details: some underwhelming abilities, tactics that are not very interesting, pets that do not feel distinct enough, and choices that often do not feel very rewarding.

On the other side, Cyrylius focuses more on the overall structure of the class, and I think that point is very fair too. Right now, Magus does not really feel like it has three strong, satisfying, clearly defined tree identities. It feels more like a class with a lot of ideas, but one that does not fully commit to any of them.

So to me, both posts complement each other really well: one shows that a lot of individual tools feel weak or uninteresting, and the other shows that even beyond that, the class still lacks a clear overall direction.

That is also why I strongly agree with the general conclusion from both posts: Magus mainly needs better direction, not just a few isolated tweaks.

If I had to sum up a few directions that would make sense to me:

- give each tree a real identity, with a clearer role
- better reward the class for being so static, instead of mostly giving it the downside
- rework underused tactics so they create real build choices
- give each pet a real purpose and identity
- make AoE gameplay feel more alive, more active, and more satisfying
- avoid using gear as the thing that compensates for core design problems

To me, the real question is not just “which damage numbers should go up or down?” but rather:
what is each Magus build actually supposed to be good at, and does the class currently really have the tools to do that well?

And honestly, I think both of your posts show pretty clearly that, right now, the answer is not really yes.

[chookette]

So rather than just increasing a few numbers here and there, these are the kinds of concrete changes I would find much more interesting.

1. Give each tree a real identity

Right now, the three trees do not really feel like they offer three clearly distinct playstyles.

Havoc should fully embrace being the long-range / sniper tree.
For example:

- clearly reinforce its range identity
- give a real bonus to single-target spells used at long distance
- improve the reliability of important casts like Bolt of Change or Surge of Insanity

The idea is simple: if we accept being more static, then in return we should gain a real ranged pressure advantage.

Changing should become a true mid-range / active AoE tree.
It needs:

- more rhythm
- more interaction between Pandemonium, Seed of Chaos, Glean Magic, Mist, and Firestorm
- better rewards for chaining abilities well

For example, some durations could be reduced a bit, while the immediate impact is increased, or combo-style bonuses could be added when several spells are used together properly.

Daemonology should lean more clearly into being a disrupt / utility / more exposed tree.
With:

- a real gameplay logic built around Rift, Lash, and close-range play
- but also better survivability or clearer group utility in return

2. Make the pets actually feel different

Right now, a lot of players mostly feel like there is Pink Horror, and then everything else.

Each pet should give a real reason to pick it.

Pink Horror: a single-target / pressure / useful debuff pet
For example:

- a bonus that supports Havoc gameplay
- or a small debuff useful for ranged play, such as anti-disrupt, crit, or resistance pressure

Blue Horror: an AoE / zone control pet
For example:

- better synergy with Mist, Seed of Chaos, or Firestorm
- or a small AoE debuff such as a light slow, reduced resistances, or reduced morale generation

Flamer: a close-range / aggressive pressure pet
For example:

- better synergy with Lash, Rift, or shorter-range abilities
- with a real offensive gain that justifies playing closer

And above all, repositioning or resummoning the daemon should be less punishing.
Losing too much tempo just because you need to readjust your pet makes the class feel unnecessarily clunky.

3. Better reward the fact that the class is static

Magus already pays a big price in mobility and fluidity.
If that constraint stays, then there needs to be a real payoff.

For example:

- give Havoc a true range advantage
- improve the reliability of key casts that are too easily wasted
- or allow certain important spells to keep their value better in more dynamic fights

In concrete terms, a long cast or very telegraphed spell should do at least one of these things:

- hit really hard
- bring real utility
- or be harder to cancel for free

Otherwise, we keep all the downside without the actual benefit.

4. Make AoE gameplay more interactive

This is another point that keeps coming up: Magus AoE can feel too passive and not very satisfying.

A simple direction would be to make certain spell chains more interesting.

For example:

- Pandemonium could better set up or amplify another AoE spell
- Seed of Chaos could gain more value as part of a combo instead of in isolated use
- Mist could keep its role as a static area spell, but with a more noticeable secondary effect
- Firestorm could remain a big setup spell, but with a clearer payoff when placed well

The goal is not just “more damage,” but a gameplay flow where it feels like you are actually building something, instead of just placing spells and waiting.

5. Give Magus a clearly identifiable group value

Right now, in organized groups, the question is often very simple:
why take a Magus over another DPS that is more direct, simpler, and more reliable?

That answer needs to become much clearer.

For example:

- a real useful AoE debuff that the group feels immediately
- better interaction between the daemon and the group
- a clearer disrupt role built around Rift
- or a specific utility that makes Magus worth bringing even when it is not the strongest raw damage class

The goal should be that a group leader can immediately say:
“ok, if I take a Magus, I know exactly what it brings to the group.”

[DirkDaring]

Honestly Dissolving mists, same as Napalm are ok for PVE, but stop casting it on fort/keep defense, and attacking. Mists/Napalm suffer from the same as on live, Huge aoe radius, long duration, low damage per tick, easy to heal through the damage, and just like on live people stand in it to build morale's faster as there is no danger from the dot.

Casting it on the defenders inside after the inner door is down, or on those outside inner door building morale's to push, is just helping them.

On live it was the same, both eng, and mag damage was to low, and required a lot of time to do it`s full damage, Mag has it easier with Blue indgo fire channeled beam of death, but their dots still suffers same as on live.

Back in 2017 or 2018 they changed how turrets etc worked, each one added bonus to abilities, like the stacks gave higher damage bonus, shorter dot duration so damage was applied in shorter amount of time, cast on the move, increased dodge/disrupt etc.

Then they reverted everything back and nerfed the stack damage bonus to half, removed all the other turrets bonus by type no reduced dot duration, increased dodge/disrupt etc.

Eng heal keg used to be aoe and outside of group so it affected all allies now its group only.

[noronn]

I don't really think Magus needs all that much in small scale (GROUP CONTENT NOT SOLO). It's very close to becoming massively OP if you change too much.

It suffers from long cooldowns and even longer cast times compared to other / similiar ranged dps, which makes it a rather dumb choice to pare with a melee dps
(Ifoc with 16(!) seconds cd, while Engi has 8 seconds and sorc / bw only 11 seconds)
(While the only fast casting abilities belong to the mid range aoe tree instead of the single target tree and deal for a Magus inferior spirit damage.)

The contribution to fast damage is a bit limited without sacrificing two tactic slots (Swift Flames and Surging Power) while being incredibly stationary to reach about the same or less damage than the much more mobile squig or sorc.

Something we can probably all agree on is the need for a stronger pet mechanic bonus that feels actually rewarding setting up in the correct position.
Or the more lazy approach limiting the loss for resummoning the pet. But I would like to see the cast time gone then. You practically stop dealing damage when you have to constantly move which is even worse without insta pet tactic.

1. Come up with a decent and rewarding pet mechanic
2. lower cooldowns a bit on certain abilities (IFOC for example)
3. Maybe (because IDK if that would make the class borderline broken already) move rend winds into havoc, give it elemental damage and / or let it benefit from Surging power

These 3 (or maybe even only 2) would make the class synergize more with current meta and playstyle of other rdps.

For AOE I'm not exactly sure what is needed as I dont enjoy the playstyle, but it suffers from the same issues single target suffers from. By the time you are ready to drop Firestorm, everything is either dead or you have to move and basically play without the pet damage bonus at all with how fast based rvr blob fights are right now.

So maybe buff the pbaoe channel and change it to spirit damage?

[Martok]

And since he will definitely attempt to defend himself with some form of personal attack at me...

I don't even know who you are. However...

RoR doesn't deserve being taken seriously.

Thanks for the support.