[Magus] A unique class… but one that deserves a real refresh in group play

[Martok]

I’m going to reply calmly...

Yeah, ok.

That said, your response rests on a fairly simple contradiction: you openly admit that you do not really know the Magus, while at the same time taking a very confident stance in order to mock a specific criticism of that class. From that point alone, there is already a clear issue of consistency.

To begin, your use of the term mockery is misplaced. My history as a member of this server and this community, a history which dates back to 2016, is united by a common thread. Humor. During my time as host of Realm Watch I employed humor in a attempt to render the show more entertaining, and most people got it. When I stream I do the same. In fact, watch one of my Warhammer videos with the word 'humor' in the title as a supporting example of my assertion. Watch one of the Lightning Round clips, I mean damn. I understand humor is subjective and not everyone will appreciate every joke made. But that does not alter the fact they were jokes. Mockery implies a direct attack on an individual in the attempt to belittle or demean them. I made no such attempt in regard to you. I made a few jokes, and you will find the same type of humor is almost every video I craft. You and Wonshot would get along famously however.

The point I raised was never “can you do something with a Magus in absolute terms?”

Yeah, it kinda was. How would "allow(ing) certain abilities to function better in group / warband play" not constitute an absolute change to the Magus class? By definition changing how Magus abilities function changes how the Magus class functions, and I don't have to possess a deep philosophical understand at the quantum level of every ability of every class, including the Magus, to understand that. It just is, just like Vikings fans sorrow is, and Elvis isn't. Your request, however, given the nature of the server, is a perfectly fine request. My response to any such request is, as I stated in the video, based on the history of the server in regard to other players making similar request in regard to other classes. Such as the Witch Elf, but I digress.

The point is the consistency of certain Magus mechanics in an organized warband setting, meaning a real environment with pressure, movement, interrupts, focus, coordination, and actual group constraints.

All combat settings in this game occur in a real (well, in context of the game) environment with real pressure and actual movement disrupted by interrupts while being focused via coordinated effort by a group of two or more consistent with the abilities at their disposal. Your point is moot.

And that is exactly where your reasoning falls apart: you mix different contexts, different classes, and different gameplay logics that are simply not comparable.

My reasoning is as stated. As a cosmic truth coursing through and binding the history of this server, every player of every class wants their class buffed and/or altered in some form which, by default, serves as a buff while simultaneously wanting the other guys class nerfed. That is the essence of every such argument proffered in regard to specific classes. And with all due respect, because you did a fine job with it, your request is no different.

One more point:

...you minimize the problem while also proposing changes yourself to improve the class.

The only ability I specifically mentioned was the Magus Disarm, an ability which, in regard to a Magus, makes as much sense as Rosie O'Donnell becoming First Lady. Removing that ability (which will never happen, I know) would not represent an improvement in the minds of Magus players. The suggestion the disarm timer be increased to five seconds? What if I proposed the knock-down timer for Sword Masters be increased to five seconds. Do you think the player-base at large would all just nod their heads up and down in agreement?


Here is a philosophical question for you. In essence, what is the difference between these two request?

1. Buff my class.

2. I believe there are certain abilities inherent in my class currently subject to alteration, alterations which would serve to render them more effective thus allowing for more flexibility while playing in an organized warband in a dynamic environment while enhancing both the lethality and survivability of my class while fighting in said environment.


Thanks for your time.

[buerdig]

So I have been running controlled tests on dummy past few days since this thread started and in case the Devs are readings. Variations of different builds, different sets, different weapons. This isn't the best testing format since players are going to be buffed, healed, hitting you, CCs etc.

Mist is terribly weak at full middle investment. It does not seem to get disrupted and it helps build morale but this why order also loves standing in it. Firestorm makes the build without question and investing another point that would have been spent on mist is better spent on maxing middle or Seed of Chaos. Seed of Chaos is excellent if not disrupted. The damage tic hits harder and the detonation AoE hits harder than the time it would take for people to get out of mist. Flamer at max was ok, pink horror still did more damage even though I maxed the middle tree. I understand the scaling is meant to be inbetween blue and pink so it's ok. There just isn't anything special other than it benefits from glean magic where pink is elemental. Rend winds is nice due to the 3 hits as spammable but lash just does so much more damage.

Flickering Red Fire, this ability I will never understand, it's slow, there is three talents dedicated to this and none make using it worth it. Even with the disrupt talent, I would rather cast Winds twice. Withered soul and its talent work great, SVF is a nice by itself but has too many tactics like FrF; this is assuming I'm speccing into the heal and using the 7 second CD; both not worth the investment for getting a self-heal.

Infernal blast, with the SoV crit proc and taking the extra 50% crit damage bonus does not feel that amazing when compared with Surge of insanity. This does benefit and it hits like a truck; Infernal pain tactic, I just don't see the benefit as the DoT is just so weak. Warpflame? It looks cool but even the blue demon does more damage. Agonizing torrent is a better version, and you can move while doing it if we really want to use a PbAoE.

I'm not going to go into Rift as we already discussed the issues, as well as CCs. Few things after testing and reading about Engi and checking out different destro classes. Here are some things I hope are noticed along with what else has been posted by others.

• 1. Other than Pink horror and Withering (-5 crit chance, +15% dmg/-5 disrupt) we have no form of lowering attributes outside of gear. Engis are able to lower armor, increase build time, lower dodge and block. We should be able to have some sort of AoE stat debuff considering the only ones we have are single target and easily cleansed.
  
  2. Having to pick between 15% crit for havoc or changeling; we typically are using the base skills from both and Engis are able to take a talent for universal Crit chance if they are within 100 ft of their turret. Both are the same point investment except we have to split for it only to work on half our spells.
  
  3. So many tactics are just useless or can be improved on. 160 toughness tactic is waaay to high and is mediocre that it's even there. This should be a buff to our group or anyone near our pet like the AP regen is. Both Engi/Magus have resummon and instant pet tactic. Why not just include the stack not resetting into the instant summon? As long as the pet doesn't die, switched, let us be able to keep our stacks instead of having to use resummon when we are already invested into the tactic.
  
  4. Pets really should feel unique as they were once before. As I pointed out, pink horror provides the only utility, best damage out of the 3. There should be more of a choice between Pink horror which provides something other than DPS or just plain PbAoE DPS, Mid range AoE DPS.
  
  5. Gear shouldn't be the answer to our issues. You provided a good utility in the Dark Promise gear but having to wear a full set of PvE gear to bring some utility isn't really a solution.

I feel like for the most part, the feedback has been constructive so hopefully we can provide insight.

[Starx]

The only ability I specifically mentioned was the Magus Disarm, an ability which, in regard to a Magus, makes as much sense as Rosie O'Donnell becoming First Lady. Removing that ability (which will never happen, I know) would not represent an improvement in the minds of Magus players. The suggestion the disarm timer be increased to five seconds? What if I proposed the knock-down timer for Sword Masters be increased to five seconds. Do you think the player-base at large would all just nod their heads up and down in agreement?

You ignore my reasoning completely, disarm is not a hard CC and KD is. And it does come off as mockery when you just laugh at the idea and dont expand further or address points made.

Aside from what I said earlier, we have 5 sec silences in the game, with no conditionals, while not hard CC it's much better as its not only a defensive but strong offensive tool when used on healers not to mention even if the target you are trying to kill has immunity its still useable on someone healing them.

Tbh Id rather see a new class of immunity for certain weaker CC that disarm woukd fall into, but asking for +1 sec is more realistic than that or getting it removed for a new ability entirely which would also be preferable.


@OP he was more saying your writing sounds good but lacks substance, lawyer speak etc.

But Someone doesn't need to play a class to be able to discuss balance around them, I dont agree with you there. I've never played IB, but ive sat in discord with mountain for many hours way back before IB was buffed and we tried to figure out how to make it worth running over SM+Knight, he was a great tank player and that was his baby, but he never got to play it much and the reasons were layed out plainly for everyone part of those discord calls many times. Any one of us could have easily made a case for IB buffs in terms of what they needed to be competitive back then.

I'd say more but im on my phone and afraid this threads gonna turn into insult flinging at some point lol.

[Martok]

You ignore my reasoning completely, disarm is not a hard CC and KD is. And it does come off as mockery when you just laugh at the idea and dont expand further or address points made.

Starx, my man.

There are two means by which I could have stated I disagreed with your point made. One would have been to simply state, in a bland but direct manner, I disagree with your point made. The other would be to employ humor in the form of Satire. I chose the latter because, you know, never pass up the opportunity to insert a bit of humor into the proceedings.

I have read a number of your post. I quoted you prior in an earlier edition of The Reckoning Monologues. I know you are an intelligent guy and you make good points. In this case, all that happened was I disagreed with your point and chose to say so by contracting out to Dr. Evil. There was no insult meant and I hope you won't take any.

But Someone doesn't need to play a class to be able to discuss balance around them...

Case in point. I agree. As for the thread devolving into a shouting match I mean I suppose that is the ultimate doom of all threads but I don't see that here yet. Debate is a point-counterpoint, and so far that is what is occurring here.