WElf Nerf

[ponko22]

I can't believe there are people who still yell "WE is weak" and call for other classes to be nerfed, even after getting hit by pounces, two AoEs, debuffs, and multiple armor-ignoring attacks. ?　Do you want WE to be able to easily beat every class?

Your thinking can become rigid, so you should play on both the DEST and ORDER sides. When I play ORDER, I get frustrated by choppa pulls and mara pulls over walls, and when I play DEST, I get instantly killed by WHs and burned to a crisp by BWs. I really enjoy it.

[rorswar]

You missed the point entirely. The fact is, when the other side can do it, its then not fair. Order has been eating cake for a very long time. Now they sour when another side can do it. Kinda like removing ranged knock down from SHs but not SWs. Order players are quick to cry on the forums.

Pretty sure it is you that is missing the point entirely, to the point that I can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse.

What ability does a WE have that order characters do not have? You speak of being obtuse and yet here you are.

“What abilities does one character have that a whole realm doesn’t have?”

That argument is just insane.

It’s not that a single ability is OP. It’s that the WE has the whole Swiss Army knife AND kitchen sink thrown at it.

[Slowbro]

But but it's not balanced around solo play so just fight WE as a team or WB and you will have no problem. You wanted the no solo balance now you get it.

[Farrul]

That argument is just insane.

It’s not that a single ability is OP. It’s that the WE has the whole Swiss Army knife AND kitchen sink thrown at it.

Mostly true, but there are a few outliers that stand out.

Sacrifices Rewarded. There is nothing else close to this power level absorb tactic available to any other DPS class, Order or destro. When you consider this is a class with stealth with tools like Agile escape it gets even more absurd synergy-wise.

Shadow leap should never had been introduced in its current iteration, obviously not balanced with the class toolkit and utility.

Agonizing Wounds working with Feinted position( same for WH mirror) is clearly not balanced either.

Other than that, i agree it's mostly a total of what the class has got but with an emphasize on the middle-tree(Path of suffering) which is busted.

Arguably some base ability stuff has got too high damage scaling as mentioned in the OP and some still ignoring toughness.

P.S. Sacrificial Stab is arguably too strong judging by numbers( although i will let the jury out on this one, it's not my gripe with the class).

[culland]

You missed the point entirely. The fact is, when the other side can do it, its then not fair. Order has been eating cake for a very long time. Now they sour when another side can do it. Kinda like removing ranged knock down from SHs but not SWs. Order players are quick to cry on the forums.

Pretty sure it is you that is missing the point entirely, to the point that I can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse.

What ability does a WE have that order characters do not have? You speak of being obtuse and yet here you are.

This is the proof of what I just said, maybe its not deliberate.

[arklow]

That argument is just insane.

It’s not that a single ability is OP. It’s that the WE has the whole Swiss Army knife AND kitchen sink thrown at it.

Mostly true, but there are a few outliers that stand out.

Sacrifices Rewarded. There is nothing else close to this power level absorb tactic available to any other DPS class, Order or destro. When you consider this is a class with stealth with tools like Agile escape it gets even more absurd synergy-wise.

Shadow leap should never had been introduced in its current iteration, obviously not balanced with the class toolkit and utility.

Agonizing Wounds working with Feinted position( same for WH mirror) is clearly not balanced either.

Other than that, i agree it's mostly a total of what the class has got but with an emphasize on the middle-tree(Path of suffering) which is busted.

Arguably some base ability stuff has got too high damage scaling as mentioned in the OP and some still ignoring toughness.

P.S. Sacrificial Stab is arguably too strong judging by numbers( although i will let the jury out on this one, it's not my gripe with the class).

I agree with you, they shouldn't give the Shadow Leap to the WE and instead they should give a 25% more critical hit tactic to a finisher like the Wh with the BaL, which doesn't need a jump or anything like that nonsense because nobody survives a critical hit from that, they just need to charge the 5 points, use the BaL and watch from a distance as the target rots in the explosion, so why run after that prey if they're going to die anyway?

[Sinisterror]

That argument is just insane.

It’s not that a single ability is OP. It’s that the WE has the whole Swiss Army knife AND kitchen sink thrown at it.

Mostly true, but there are a few outliers that stand out.

Sacrifices Rewarded. There is nothing else close to this power level absorb tactic available to any other DPS class, Order or destro. When you consider this is a class with stealth with tools like Agile escape it gets even more absurd synergy-wise.

Shadow leap should never had been introduced in its current iteration, obviously not balanced with the class toolkit and utility.

Agonizing Wounds working with Feinted position( same for WH mirror) is clearly not balanced either.

Other than that, i agree it's mostly a total of what the class has got but with an emphasize on the middle-tree(Path of suffering) which is busted.

Arguably some base ability stuff has got too high damage scaling as mentioned in the OP and some still ignoring toughness.

P.S. Sacrificial Stab is arguably too strong judging by numbers( although i will let the jury out on this one, it's not my gripe with the class).

I agree with you, they shouldn't give the Shadow Leap to the WE and instead they should give a 25% more critical hit tactic to a finisher like the Wh with the BaL, which doesn't need a jump or anything like that nonsense because nobody survives a critical hit from that, they just need to charge the 5 points, use the BaL and watch from a distance as the target rots in the explosion, so why run after that prey if they're going to die anyway?

Yes to shadow leap removal from WE and Bringing back old frenzied mayhem tactic. 3% Crit for every finisher point so at 5 you have 15% Crit chance. Making Witchbrew able to crit again as well.

[nat3s]

That argument is just insane.

It’s not that a single ability is OP. It’s that the WE has the whole Swiss Army knife AND kitchen sink thrown at it.

Mostly true, but there are a few outliers that stand out.

Sacrifices Rewarded. There is nothing else close to this power level absorb tactic available to any other DPS class, Order or destro. When you consider this is a class with stealth with tools like Agile escape it gets even more absurd synergy-wise.

Shadow leap should never had been introduced in its current iteration, obviously not balanced with the class toolkit and utility.

Agonizing Wounds working with Feinted position( same for WH mirror) is clearly not balanced either.

Other than that, i agree it's mostly a total of what the class has got but with an emphasize on the middle-tree(Path of suffering) which is busted.

Arguably some base ability stuff has got too high damage scaling as mentioned in the OP and some still ignoring toughness.

P.S. Sacrificial Stab is arguably too strong judging by numbers( although i will let the jury out on this one, it's not my gripe with the class).

I agree with you, they shouldn't give the Shadow Leap to the WE and instead they should give a 25% more critical hit tactic to a finisher like the Wh with the BaL, which doesn't need a jump or anything like that nonsense because nobody survives a critical hit from that, they just need to charge the 5 points, use the BaL and watch from a distance as the target rots in the explosion, so why run after that prey if they're going to die anyway?

Which Destro class gets the other Pounce then? Mara?

Currently Order has pounce on WL, aSW, SW (appreciate SW is m2 so not really counting it. Destro has it on WE, mSH.

WE also got pounce because Ruthless Assault was nerfed to be melee range with the mdps patch meaning all WE abilities require face tanking now, RA would need reverting if pounce was removed. In contrast WH got an extra ranged ability to go with its ranged finishers - so it feels like they leant into the class thematics, WH with a gun has ranged kite options, WE switched to pure face tank.

I have WH and WE at 80+ both fully sov geared. I love them both equally, if people are complaining about Sac Stab hitting hard now, they need to appreciate it hits for less than BAL, so consider what you're really asking for here, nerf Sac Stab only and players like me will just play our WH'ers and keep ganking with hard hitting abilities. Balance is holistic.

[krumhur]

Balance is holistic.

Asking for nerfs, instead, has never been based on a general/overall approach: it's much easier to adopt a simplistic approach, and look at single abilities, than to look at the whole and find the real problem and thus the correct solution. Take the complaints on this post for example: some people are talking about the Sacrificial Rewarded tactic, others about the pounce skill, few others about Sacrificial Stab and Agonizing Wound too...

Also, most of the replies here are pointless, leading to nothing useful, and possibly harmful for the overall balance of the class/game (make a class too weak and its mirror will be too strong): this discussion is going nowhere, after 20+ there is not even a general consensus on what is right and what is wrong, it's just a bunch of personal opinions at best.

Finally, since the post has been watered down too much by useless informations, subjective stuff and even personal attacks, it's unlikely that it will serve any real purpose. It would be better to start a new topic, with a different approach, like the one you suggested: looking at the class as a whole, at its role in RvR/SCs/roaming/warband, and understanding why (and on which spec) it's perceived too powerful, to pinpoint if it's the sum of certain abilities or if it's just a matter of fixing numbers.

There is not method in this post. Hence why it's useless.

[Sever1n]

They gonna lie till no tommorow)