[WE/WH] shadow

[Delirio]

Do you have actual proof of those 550–570 numbers? I’m running a full glass cannon build and I haven’t seen numbers like that, my friend.
Also, Frenzied Mayhem isn’t even a good tactic. Outside of boosting your Witchbrew numbers, it’s basically a dead tactic for auto-attacks, abilities, and everything else.

There’s no point in touching that skill, otherwise you’re changing the balance of it for the DPS spec and for group fights. GO play versus the best order comps and you feel WE its just average, we need those high dps numbers in order to kill something.

I don't like calling names, but since the player was mentioned before here's few examples from my fights vs Solater. I believe he's running more offensively oriented spec, with 5p warlord for additional meele power. If he were to exchange talis from armor to strength he could probably reach higher numbers.



I'm not against having high DPS numbers, but be a DPS character then, not a stealthy tanky bruiser with access to 2x 3k corp damage burst skill.

a dont see this big numbers u talk on combat log sincerely... wanna talk about sw or wl again again again gain ....or wh

[PROsiak]

a dont see this big numbers u talk on combat log sincerely... wanna talk about sw or wl again again again gain ....or wh

What a great argument, i don't see it therefore it doesn't exist. Guess what, i dont see any sw or wl or wh or whatever else you are seeing. Wanna talk about it ?

On a serious note, if u wanna talk about sw or wl or else i suggest you open up another topic. This one is about wh/we and more specifically about stealth, but i must agree it got derailed and i contributed to it.

[CeeJay89]

FOTM means flavor of the month, an ironic statement considering people have cried about the same stuff for years xD. To be fair, anyone arguing about how "kiteable" DPS healers are isn't worth holding a conversation with anyways so just let people sulk and enjoy.

"Kiteable" and ignorable are two different things. Literacy is difficult, I know .

Worth noting, FOTM right now is dps RP and def WL for solo roaming.

Not even close.

Interesting, and what do you think beats a well setup dps RP out of interest?

FOTM doesn't mean 'strongest class'. This discussion is pointless. I have already iterated multiple times that I do not care that WE is a strong solo class. I don't even think it's the best solo class. I am fully aware that DPS healers are the kings of solo roaming and 1v1s followed by defensive setups like Def WL, Chosen, SM, WE, WH, whatever. The problem with WE (and to a lesser degree WH) is NOT that they're strong in a 1v1 or even a 1vX. I don't care. I care that you can't see them coming and when they DO pop on you, UNLESS you're one of these solo roaming defensive set up classes, you ARE dead. You can't run or outplay a WE anymore because they have too many tools to stick to a target. It's badly designed.

You keep going on and on and on with people about 1v1s and strong solos and I, as well as probably everyone else, don't care. I've beaten lots of Def WEs (Solater included) with a Dominator geared WL. Neat. I understand they're strong and busted for 1v1. I don't care. I DON'T want to play it. It's not enjoyable. I just want to be able to play classes I WANT to spec, invest in, and enjoy and still be able to walk out of the warcamp and not get jumped at all exits by an invisible target you can no longer kite or play against.

This game isn't JUST about duels. That's what you and every other WE defender aren't getting. You CAN, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise, easily walk away from a DPS healer. You don't have to fight them and they have very few tools to force you to fight them. What I keep trying to say is that UNLESS those classes sneak up on you and are clever about it, you just ride off, hit flee, hit charge, whatever and run away. You can see them coming. You're not forced to engage with them. You can NOT do that with WE anymore.

This is just FORCING players who don't want to play these boring ass duel specs all the time to sit in the warcamp and wait for a large group of people to ride out so they can play the damn game.

I do NOT think WEs need their damage nerfed. I do NOT think Def WEs are that bad. I have one complaint, and that's pounce. A stealth class should NOT have pounce, let alone with a snare attached to it. No class should have stealth, pounce, charge, AND snare/root immunity built into their kit without some kind of significant tradeoff.

[F4llen4ngel]

my WE 197 dmg bonus/ 985 str, without frienzied mayhem:
training construct: witchbrew: 322, 188 mitigated
target dummy: witchbrew: 510

with frienzied mayhem
training construct: 402
dummy: 637

In real fights i rarely see more than 250-350/ tick average. For 13 point finisher, i dont think its too many or too low eighter
with fast 1.5 weapon, 50% AA haste and 1006 str (201 dmg bonus) values are:
training construct: 408, 6 tick was unloaded in 4 seconds
dummy: 645, unloaded in 3 seconds

on construct highest 3sec burst 4895 1 sec burst: 2451

with def sov, half naked, still 806 str, on construct 354 witchbrew ticks unloaded in 3 sec, bursts are 3.8k and 2k.
with 646 str, really low, 129 dmg bonus: WB ticks: 348, bursts: 3.4k 3s, and 1.4k 1 sec.

naked, 1 weapon, 226 str, 45 dmg bonus: 235 WB ticks, 183 kiss of death ticks, 101 wracking pains ticks, EB 73 ticks, all corporeal, 3s burst: 2283, 1s 1309

So basicaly it doesnt really matter that much if you have 1k str or almost 0 unfortunately, whatever the nerf on it was applied.

235 naked, 408 almost bis stasts. I havent used pots, so it can be a lil bit different, but the range is around those numbers.

So you got results, that you can get almost double the damage on single Witchbrew tick from investing in strength and you concluded, that it doesn't matter if u have 1k str or 0? Where's the logic in that?

Anyway, my point isn't really the damage being too high or too low. My point is THERE IS meaningfull damage potential, which people here are claiming that there is not and that def WE is doomed for minutes long fights. I'm pretty sure these skilled WE players someone mentioned before figured out the sweetspots for scaling the damage and building defences, but i've seen hits with Witchbrew on me for 550-570 after mit (so in my case around 780 before, no WC cheese). And it's still with armor/toughness talis focused builds.

That being said, if i were to approach making some balance changes, i wouldn't mess with the damage of this skill, might as well be fine as it is. There are more pendings issues either with this skill or with WE overall. How about we start with stopping the cooldown of this skill ticking while it is active, so no double Witchbrew potential? How about lowering the duration from 1min to idk. 10-15 seconds? How about raising the absorb tactic from 3s per proc to 5 sec? And what is going on with that Pounce anyway or 100% armor ignore SS ... These are the types of changes the class desperately needs, but god forbid anyone raises their concers about this or that and elite players gather like flies to throw 'l2p's', 'no problem with stealth cause it's a team game, so only 100vs100 balance disscussions are meaningfull', 'no problem with bikini class being stealthy, deadly and tanky as a rock' or whatever else...

First, yes, i did conclude, that a 200-400 tick is not much of a defference, being a 13p finisher 1200 to maybe 3000-ish dmg in 3 seconds optimally, if specced to inflate this dmg to its max.
Second, i exactly saying as you, that there is still significant meaningful dmg even if you have basically zero str, so you can call it that i agree with you.

[nat3s]

No, witchbrew isn't doing 3000 damage in a single use. It does about the same total damage as the stronger 10s CD AM/Sham/RP/Zeal DoTs at best.

It scales with strength just like magic dots scale with int. Often Envenomed Blade and Enfeebling Strike will do more damage than Witchbrew over the course of a fight.

The power of def WE is not in its damage, it does low dps, its about outlasting people.

[Sinisterror]

No, witchbrew isn't doing 3000 damage in a single use. It does about the same total damage as the stronger 10s CD AM/Sham/RP/Zeal DoTs at best.

It scales with strength just like magic dots scale with int. Often Envenomed Blade and Enfeebling Strike will do more damage than Witchbrew over the course of a fight.

The power of def WE is not in its damage, it does low dps, its about outlasting people.

DEF Specs started to dominate when GcD was changed to 1.5s from 1.15s - Ie slowing gameplay by 20-25% and this means we went from 8 abilities in 10s to 6 abilities in 10s. This makes def specs able to outlast fights in the first place. All other nerfs to Crit and Critical dmg don't help and contribute to this Outlasting Meta Vs Old Outdpsing Meta. What used to be instant like 4 potions + Morale now takes 7.5s Witchbrew should Crit again with leonine frenzy!

[Narfii]

Worth noting since it's in context that Solater is on frenzied mayhem and does NOT run kiss of doom. As well, melee power on his jewel talis. He's not as tanky as he would otherwise be, has essentially no regen, and his wb is inflated slightly from frenzied mayhem. A more tanky build would have lower witchbrew numbers.

You don't run wb in the traditional offensive build because it's back-loaded and is slow without 1.5 weapons/mark.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with points that i made. The options are clearly on the table, you can build more offensively and push the WB damage higher, or you could drop this numbers to 400 dmg per tick (look how far we've come from 200-250dmg) and get more regen or defenses.

On offensive build i agree, there's no point in running WB when u have SS (maybe who knows, some 13/13 builds emerge with +2 sov, but im not a WE theorycrafter, so dont ask me) , but we're not talking about that. I don't exactly think WE was in need of 3k+ dmg on a crit finisher (i swear next time i get 3.6k crits i gonna make a screen) that has a 100% armor ignore on top, but that would be discussion for another topic.

Yeah that's kinda why I posted it...solater is the prime example of what you're talking about. Big wb numbers but not really that much survivability.

Also, witchbrew drops below 500 by 900 str. By 800 str you're near 400 which means yeah about 300 or so after mitigation.

Yes, WE did actually need help on the finishers. They sucked; worst part of the kit besides stealth pounce. I think the only thing you can criticize is that new SS made puncture obsolete , which is basically the point anyways.

[PROsiak]

First, yes, i did conclude, that a 200-400 tick is not much of a defference, being a 13p finisher 1200 to maybe 3000-ish dmg in 3 seconds optimally, if specced to inflate this dmg to its max.
Second, i exactly saying as you, that there is still significant meaningful dmg even if you have basically zero str, so you can call it that i agree with you.

That's what i do not understand, dealing 1200 or 2400 is not 'not much of a difference', but exactly double the combined damage. But you do you, if for you there isn't any difference i won't argue with that.

No, witchbrew isn't doing 3000 damage in a single use. It does about the same total damage as the stronger 10s CD AM/Sham/RP/Zeal DoTs at best.

It scales with strength just like magic dots scale with int. Often Envenomed Blade and Enfeebling Strike will do more damage than Witchbrew over the course of a fight.

The power of def WE is not in its damage, it does low dps, its about outlasting people.

It would be nice if u could adress other points made by me or other users, not joining the discussion every once in a while and then stating the same 'low damage' argument.

I already said that i do not have problem with the damage of this skill. It's for you to decide how much you wanna scale it. I've shown examples that you can stack it up to 3.6k, and higher if u really wanted to, but that would not be the def WE you are talking about. From what you have said earlier typical def WE should be dealing around 1.8k WB, without tactic. Put a magic power tali, use offensive pot, get few talis into str instead of tough/armor and with tactic you have 3k. Don't deny that it doesn't exist if you are not playing it. Not everyone is playing your imaginary 1v1 duel scenarios in open rvr.

Yeah that's kinda why I posted it...solater is the prime example of what you're talking about. Big wb numbers but not really that much survivability.

Also, witchbrew drops below 500 by 900 str. By 800 str you're near 400 which means yeah about 300 or so after mitigation.

Yes, WE did actually need help on the finishers. They sucked; worst part of the kit besides stealth pounce. I think the only thing you can criticize is that new SS made puncture obsolete , which is basically the point anyways.

Well, he still has all talis slotted into armor, he is still using absorb tactic, has defensive victorious proc and he is still a STEALTH class with crazy mobility. So don't downplay these defences. You are probably too focused on comparing this to other, fully defensive oriented setups.

I agree that the finishers needed some love. But i do not agree that a 100% armor ignore on SS was the right solution. Don't tell me i'm not allowed to critize it xd Should i be spamming suggestions for puncture rework now, since it's obsolete? How about making it undefendable? It's probably the only thing WE is lacking, undefendable attacks.

[Avernus]

It's probably the only thing WE is lacking, undefendable attacks.

WE is in dire need of medium armor, just to finish what mdps patch have started.

I've seen some dev enjoying WE play so i can't see any reason to bother and say anything serious about all that WE stuff any longer.

P.S. I wish i'm wrong, i really do...

[Ksekwlothreftis]

First, yes, i did conclude, that a 200-400 tick is not much of a defference, being a 13p finisher 1200 to maybe 3000-ish dmg in 3 seconds optimally, if specced to inflate this dmg to its max.
Second, i exactly saying as you, that there is still significant meaningful dmg even if you have basically zero str, so you can call it that i agree with you.

That's what i do not understand, dealing 1200 or 2400 is not 'not much of a difference', but exactly double the combined damage. But you do you, if for you there isn't any difference i won't argue with that.

No, witchbrew isn't doing 3000 damage in a single use. It does about the same total damage as the stronger 10s CD AM/Sham/RP/Zeal DoTs at best.

It scales with strength just like magic dots scale with int. Often Envenomed Blade and Enfeebling Strike will do more damage than Witchbrew over the course of a fight.

The power of def WE is not in its damage, it does low dps, its about outlasting people.

It would be nice if u could adress other points made by me or other users, not joining the discussion every once in a while and then stating the same 'low damage' argument.

I already said that i do not have problem with the damage of this skill. It's for you to decide how much you wanna scale it. I've shown examples that you can stack it up to 3.6k, and higher if u really wanted to, but that would not be the def WE you are talking about. From what you have said earlier typical def WE should be dealing around 1.8k WB, without tactic. Put a magic power tali, use offensive pot, get few talis into str instead of tough/armor and with tactic you have 3k. Don't deny that it doesn't exist if you are not playing it. Not everyone is playing your imaginary 1v1 duel scenarios in open rvr.

Yeah that's kinda why I posted it...solater is the prime example of what you're talking about. Big wb numbers but not really that much survivability.

Also, witchbrew drops below 500 by 900 str. By 800 str you're near 400 which means yeah about 300 or so after mitigation.

Yes, WE did actually need help on the finishers. They sucked; worst part of the kit besides stealth pounce. I think the only thing you can criticize is that new SS made puncture obsolete , which is basically the point anyways.

Well, he still has all talis slotted into armor, he is still using absorb tactic, has defensive victorious proc and he is still a STEALTH class with crazy mobility. So don't downplay these defences. You are probably too focused on comparing this to other, fully defensive oriented setups.

I agree that the finishers needed some love. But i do not agree that a 100% armor ignore on SS was the right solution. Don't tell me i'm not allowed to critize it xd Should i be spamming suggestions for puncture rework now, since it's obsolete? How about making it undefendable? It's probably the only thing WE is lacking, undefendable attacks.

All of witch elf's attacks are undefendable, the point of the class is backstabbing both to make use of conditional attacks and buffs and to ignore parry and block. I'd rather see the infamous 50% AA damage amp back so my WE can hit like a WL xD.