Revisit the way keeps are claimed and guilds move in for free (without boxes)

[kyrontor]

We used to have until a couple years ago the same system for keep defense as it was on Live, if a keep was attacked everyone in the region that died would respawn inside. At some point this got revisited, and the reasoning back then was that it was way too easy to get in a keep defense (and, consequently, too hard to take a keep). But did we really fix much back then? Let's see this again.

With the current rules, one guild can have a single person get into keep, with a single box, or alternatively a stealth class can get also easily in inner, and claim the keep. Then the whole guild moves in for keep defense, for free; without boxes or fighting their way. This gives a big advantage to the big guilds on the server. But there is more here: they can unclaim the keep right after all guildies get in, and the next guild do the same, until the whole realm gets into keep with just a couple of boxes or stealthers. Unless I am understanding this wrong, this doesn't seem to serve the original reasoning that getting to keep for defense should be hard, that's why I am suggesting to review it. I haven't been a guild leader to know all the details of this, like keep upgrades, so I 'll abstain from doing a specific suggestion on how to fix this issue.

[Shogun4138]

Keep claiming is great except for allowing guilds to just port in. That should be removed. Now upgrades to gaurds should be buffed.

[wardfan220]

Keep claiming is great except for allowing guilds to just port in. That should be removed. Now upgrades to gaurds should be buffed.

The only thing that needs removed from Keep takes is the requirement that so many guildies be online to keep it. Small guilds can help too...

[kpihuss]

Keep claiming is great except for allowing guilds to just port in. That should be removed. Now upgrades to gaurds should be buffed.

The keep upgrades that guilds provide are important, especially when the AAO is heavily against your side. And there are upgrades that are not only beneficial to the guild that owns the keep: the reinforced door, the healer to remove wounds, the improved respawn, the guards, the healers on bottom, the lifetappers on lord room, the war altar, etc. all affect the entire realm, and sometimes they are decisive in making a keep defense possible.

While it is true that some upgrades only affect the guild that controls the keep, such as flight access or oil control, these upgrades are usually also important for the whole realm. If a guild with 10–12 people gets inside a keep that is being besieged by 3–4 warbands, they will not be able to do much on their own, but they can resurrect defenders trying to reach the walls, and very often this is key to victory. You can see this when the oil is used properly because a guild is controlling it and preventing the typical player who only cares about getting War Crests, without caring about the fate of the RvR, from wasting the oil with a bad drop.

This also helps prevent “PvE keeps” and encourages epic castle defenses, even when victory seems highly unlikely.

And one more thing: claiming keeps is not cheap either. By the end of the week, spending 500–600 gold also requires a significant time investment from players to earn that gold.

And some keep upgrades are still missing, such as barricading the back doors to prevent MDPS from getting in, or increasing the number of guards in the keeps. It would be great if those were added as well.

[kyrontor]

Keep claiming is great except for allowing guilds to just port in. That should be removed. Now upgrades to gaurds should be buffed.

The keep upgrades that guilds provide are important, especially when the AAO is heavily against your side. And there are upgrades that are not only beneficial to the guild that owns the keep: the reinforced door, the healer to remove wounds, the improved respawn, the guards, the healers on bottom, the lifetappers on lord room, the war altar, etc. all affect the entire realm, and sometimes they are decisive in making a keep defense possible.

While it is true that some upgrades only affect the guild that controls the keep, such as flight access or oil control, these upgrades are usually also important for the whole realm. If a guild with 10–12 people gets inside a keep that is being besieged by 3–4 warbands, they will not be able to do much on their own, but they can resurrect defenders trying to reach the walls, and very often this is key to victory. You can see this when the oil is used properly because a guild is controlling it and preventing the typical player who only cares about getting War Crests, without caring about the fate of the RvR, from wasting the oil with a bad drop.

This also helps prevent “PvE keeps” and encourages epic castle defenses, even when victory seems highly unlikely.

And one more thing: claiming keeps is not cheap either. By the end of the week, spending 500–600 gold also requires a significant time investment from players to earn that gold.

And some keep upgrades are still missing, such as barricading the back doors to prevent MDPS from getting in, or increasing the number of guards in the keeps. It would be great if those were added as well.

This is not really an argument to the issue. The system works exactly like this, if the attacker has 400aao or the defender has 400aao, and everything in between. It doesn't change based on the AAO. But I can play the "if" game too:

As it is now, you can organize a siege while the defender has 0 AAO or 20 AAO. This should be a very tough battle for you already, right? You put warbands in the posterns to cut access to defenders, cause the numbers are not with you. You maybe have some roamers also to cut access to BOs (and boxes). Both sides play heroically here, but the defender didn't manage to get people in despite their efforts; the attacker did a good job on the posterns. The people that got in were people that were cautious and went into the keep beforehand, cause they expected a siege. Some people managed to get in with boxes also. From these people on the walls, the healers also managed to res some, always under the fear of some stealther popping up and punt them out of keep, or some pull that unfortunately works the same way, in some cases. There is a lot of effort on both sides so far in all previous actions, nobody got it easy. The attacker though managed to eliminate most of the defenders getting in.

And now comes the cheap move: One big guild on the defender side sends in a stealther, claims the previously unclaimed keep (or they might have claimed it already long before if they have the gold - more onto that later) and sends in all their guildies for free, like 2 warbands worth of people on a 50 members online guild (that couldn't get in through fighting). One such move and all the previous effort goes in vain.
Even for the attacker's side as an individual (non-guilde), why bother with going to the keep before a ram is spawned? Why bother with upping my initiative as healer to see those stealthers in walls and maybe try to avoid em? Or the pullers? Why try to go cap box solo? When instead I can just join the big guild on the server and have everything for free (and easy)? (What a great guild advert motto btw, "join us for easymode keep defenses")
And this can even be repeated if that guild unclaims and some other guild claims.
The attacker now have to take a keep with almost same numbers inside the keep despite their huge effort & original success to cut off the defender numbers. Of course they will lose. But is that defender's win "heroic" as you claim? Not at all. It's cheap abusing of flawed RvR mechanics.

And in any case, i.e. even if this was something that relates to AAO so it happens on like 60+ AAO only, which isn't currently, I think the fix to "PvE keeps" shouldn't be "PvG (player versus gold) keeps". I actually fail to see how is that different from each other, when in reality you have to go and do some kind of PvE to make gold; not RvR. "RvR only" people are often seen inside the lakes with the starting donkey, at even R30...

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And now something off-topic, about the guilds in general. Personally I am not a big fan of this mechanic in WAR specifically. I mean why we have guilds in the first place? Mythic probably added them in the OG cause everyone else was doing it and they wanted to hit the market with something competitive. In the lore, guilds are about retired warriors, not active ones. In the game, in practice, despite players' efforts to do otherwise, this mechanic acts competitive to the core idea of the realm (Order/Destruction). When the whole realm is supposed to work altogether, despite their racial differences and "grudges" between them, to defeat a common enemy (the other realm), what the guild mechanic, that segregates players into smaller groups, is doing in relation with the realm's unity, does it make it stronger, or weaken it?
I can understand, and share, the need for people to organize in special groups for *social* reasons, people that you share some interest, a common language and/or culture, or other things that you may want to do in game, like dungeon crawling. Socialization is considered one of the "pillars" of MMOs after all. And in that sense a guild is a tool to achieve that (although a lot of people nowadays use other means to achieve such groupings, like Discord communities/channels and specifically in RoR nowadays we see that most warbands are organized around the leader, not the guild per se). But should that "tool" have all those in-game perks and benefits that relate to game mechanics (like crafting, or this example here keep defending), effectively even *forcing* people to join a guild just for the benefits (which is some kind of "forced socialization"), or we should move the opposite direction and minimize the impact on the mechanics (i.e. perks), so only socially related functionality stems from the fact that you joined a guild?

[kpihuss]

Well, keep flights are capped at 25 uses, regenerating at 1 every 30 seconds. So no, you cannot instantly fly 2 full warbands into a keep if you sneak a playersi nside and claim it. Even if one player sneaks in, claims the keep, and activates the flight, they only get the first 25 entries immediately. Bringing in another 25 takes about 12.5 more minutes, so moving 2 warbands this way takes around 17 minutes in total, not instantly.
https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/Keep ... d_Upgrades

Also, it is already quite rare for a guild to have that many players online and ready to enter that way. And if a guild is actually capable of getting a lot of people online, motivated, and organized, that should not be punished, it should be encouraged. This is a team-based game, after all.

I say this from experience too: I have defended keeps like that, and I have also fought against guilds holding claimed keeps. In practice, these mechanics often help balance the game when one side is heavily outnumbered. At least during my usual play hours, it is already rare to see a proper ram push with less than 40% AAO against the defenders.

So yes, claimed keeps give guilds advantages, but that is the whole point of the system. Those advantages are not free, they cost gold, and long-term effort to maintain. And many keep upgrades benefit the whole realm, not just the claiming guild.

As for guilds in general, I strongly disagree with the idea that they should be stripped down or discouraged. Guilds are a core part of MMOs and they fit Warhammer perfectly: different groups with their own identity, but fighting together for the realm when it matters. This is a game about organized teamplay, and people should be encouraged, not penalized, for playing that way.