A reflection on stealth classes

[Deadpoet]

For the over-simplified stealth class-playing individuals that happen to read this, I'll save your time: you just have to read the next line.
"someone is bitter that they died to a WE"

NOW, TO THE MATTER IN HAND:
TLDR:

WEs (and WHs to a lesser degree) need adjustments. Way too tanky and self supporting with no downsides nor sacrifices for a class that choose their fights and then disappear if they don't like the outcome.

At a sociological level, the possibility of no accountability and total impunity leads to an infestation of this extra cheese abomination and total frustration for people who manage to ALMOST win a fight vs them before the WE decides she isnt interested in dying and vanishes.

At the very least remove the vanish+speed+target loss stupidity that wasn't present nor needed in the original version of the game. One of the reasons that roaming is almost dead is that people who are brave or original enough to not play a stealth class will feel constantly cheated of their deserved win by a stupidly over-pampered class godmode state.


ABOUT THE INCOMING DPS PATCH
I don't have any hopes that I can realisticly expect to materialize, but I feel that I would like to express them, just for the record.

I see some problems at various levels regarding the current state of stealth classes in this game.

AT "ARCHETYPE" LEVEL:

At some point the devs will have to decide if they want Witch Elves (and WHs to a lesser degree) to be healers, tanks or dps.

Right now they are all three in one. OK, I am clearly exaggerating here, but there is something to it. The amount of self heal + absorb that a WE can do is already very high as dps go. Objectively. The fact that they don't have to spend any points in weapon skill as they do huge amounts of corporeal damage, (with some of the skills even ignoring toughness) plus spammable 100% armor ignore skill means they can build incredibly tanky without losing much damage power.

OK, you can say the same thing about some other classes, such as magus, SM, chosen, AM/shaman, all very good classes for roaming.

What tips the balance so heavily in WEs' favor (and WHs' to a lesser degree) is the fact that they exist in a different, superior universe, reserved for stealth classes alone, where they can decide when, where, how and whether they want to engage in a fight, and, even more importantly, they can disengage if they don't like an outcome that would be inevitable for all classes except for them.

That's why
AT A "SOCIOLOGICAL" LEVEL

The fact that playing a WE means that, if you are not severelly mentally handicapped, you can kill almost anything without breaking a sweat and you don't have to die, like ever, is a temptation that is really hard to resist for most people. And that has consequences for the class balance and population distribution in the game.

Of course there are people who like a support role, or who just want to contribute to their realm and don't mind sacrificing themselves for the greater good etc. But many players, maybe most people, look for a game experience that allows them to kill as much as they can and dying as unfrequently as possible. Many players try to join organized warbands where they can be relatively safe and have greater odds to kill and not die. Or at least die less than in a pug context.

Others, with a hungrier ego, want to shine individually without having to obey orders or be accountable to any higher team structure, and choose the classes that are best suited to oppress stragglers and randoms.

At the top of this marginal food chain are the stealth classes. The zero accountability and extreme killing power with total impunity has an irresistible attraction.

Many things have happened throughout the years that have enhanced this situation for the stealth classes.

At some point WEs got ranged KD

At some point ppl dying in RvR didnt teleport to besieged keep, so they had to keep trying to get to rez range from walls and were now free kills for gankers.

At some point stealth classes got yet another disengagement tool: elixir of shadows/sanctified oil. As if the stun wasn't enough.

While the general tendency of latest patches have been toward more coordination and synergy, depriving solos of some valuable tools of self survival (BG/IB self heal ability for example), stealth classes have retained their amazing survival tools. The toning down of self heal bullets/kisses and the witchbrew change to rely on str have proved vastly insufficient.

I have talked to many people who like to try their hand at solo/duo roaming exp and don't even try to fight WEs anymore, because even if they, with a lot of careful speccing, fighting skill, gear grinding, etc, manage to survive the always unequal start of the fight and somehow miraculously turn the tables and get the upper hand, the WE or WH will just decide theyre not interested in dying and will vanish.
This has been th situation for many years, but it builds up to a point where many people are really fed up with it.

Please give WE back the crit tactic, make them pure dps, increase their damage so that very few will survive their jump, like it was at the beginning of the game, but once they have commited to a fight the WE/WH chose, let them face the consequences. The stun is more than enough. Vanish+speed+lose target midfight is an abomination. Tanky self healing dps that can escape whenever they want is an abomination.

[Nauht]

TLDR

But I suspect it's WEOPnerfpls

[Sinisterror]

This is what happens when Original Warhammer online Rules/Laws are removed or added. Its obviously insane that We/Wh have Better Charge than other Mdps. It ignores GCD + doubles as stealth. Speed aspect should be removed or it should be max 1sec 50% speed boost so it would be more of a dash really than charge. Even that would be more than what they even " Need " or really should have. And it shouldnt be elixir/relic it should be lvl 40 core skill. Add back elixir of blades for both of the classes. None of the good Welfs wanted to even increase the time you can be on stealth to be more than 30sec, because then you actually had to make smart choices

Nerfed Buttons in Aor and probably RoR when it existed(wink wink) allowed you to set attack only every 1.15s and it + this Old ror main dev quote so this is not in question imo.
"The GCD on both AoR and RoR is 1.15 seconds. We know this is the case because the client allows abilities to be used 1.15s into the displayed 1.5s GCD as long as you get your timing right. If you invoke the ability too early, it will be blocked until the 1.5s GCD is up.

We previously had the server enforce the 1.5s GCD hard, and it resulted in client casts being cancelled."

So RoR has now 6 instant skills in 10s instead of 8 before. That is 25% slower gameplay now vs original faster Gcd. Obviously this buffs anyone who has casts over 1.5s so healers and rangeds but on top of that everything Extremely good and extremely needed abilities have been supoer toned down. Add Critting Riposte with 1s Icd back with Critting Leonine Frenzy/Witchbrew/Sod+Absorb vitality heal portion which was affected by Sorc 100% Critical increase mechanic! You know that kind of very good things. Removal of 50% ae Hd from the game, adding Morale dmg cap and increasing aoe cap from 9 to 24 with everything else that really lets you do something to the blob. with 9cap and old non homogenized Ranges made positioning much more impactful becase 40-65ft Ae Melee abilities like 9s ae stagger. Things like this made one party able to kill 1/3 of enemy Wb with single target abilities+Kiting after 9s and not dying to 24 with 6 is not possible any more. Add talismans like Shoulder Crit/boots talismans like Odjira 60% SPeed buff 7% Chance to proc on being hit and the other version that was 12% on being hit to increease 40% speed buff. Different Speed buffs used to stack<3 on my Shaman i could get to 115% Speed increase with Odjira+Run Away tactic+Quick escape RR skill : D

Few examples from AoR like Kotbs doing 65ft RANGED Shatter 2.8k dmg from 1 Shatter using Destroy Confidence Tactic : D

https://imgur.com/a/warhammer-original-glory-3gwL5FQ

RoR has their own thing but imo return to original Basic Laws/Rules of AoR would be for the best of all of us Examples that break the Holy Triad most are this Vanish speed buff for we/wh and adding shield to Dok/Wp... Another defensive passivegameplay adding move. And Shield is the most powerful thing you can equip in this game because of Block. Removed the need to do dmg to heal and introduced need to hit to heal. I would love The old OP Shield spec a little bit nerfed and modified to dual wield/2h because Things like 25% + Melee heals + Divine strike hits 2 extra back when it was spirit dmg meant insane lvl of healing and you could make that spec work in RvR now you cant really.

Sacrifice was a great skill when you could move whilst casting it. The ability damaging you and healing your grp by Very nicely within 100ft. Also the Ranged 300dmg absorb reseting every 1sec for potential of max 10s? For your party + you 3k absorb? nice

I have great video example of everything you are saying without even speccing to get Vanish speed buff with my rr47 Wh vs rr 76 Zealot Duel that lasts almost or a bit over 3 minutes : D And i didnt have any regen bs or defensive bs except 150% Heal bullet tactic. Its too big to upload imgur so heres one of the faster duels.

https://imgur.com/a/warhammer-online-ro ... ot-87AnRvc

[eigner93]

Like many people said before, these kind of builds should not exist on stealth classes who pick their fights and can disengage when odds dont favor them. Also i dont think their damage should be buffed as both full specced dps we and wh can melt other dps classes without any problem.As broken as WE is (and WH to a lesser degree ) i dont think these builds are used by anyone in anything else other than solo. And devs dont really care about solo play in this game.

[abezverkhiy]

I would read OP in full all but after seeing these insults about mental and morale values I certainly do not want to read it all and I reply only to the part I read.

I chose WH since day 1 in 2008. I know it very well. I do not play it very well as Shanksta or Zkillissue because reactions do not get better with age and latency from Australia does not help. We have very skilled WEs on the server like Killsattva, Solater, Shadara. They are very, very good. There are also very bad WEs which are a piece of cake. You need to know how to kill WEs. Open their forum, read about their builds and think of countering them. Countering WE is not straight forward because of Sacrifices Rewarded tactic. There are other reasons too but this one is one of the key ones.

Now about your proposals. At least those I read before I grew tired reading your malarkey about our morale and mental qualities. Remove "vanish+speed+target loss" is just idiotic. Other classes have Charge ability as a gap closer - why should we not? I would want to have leap or shadowstep as WL/SW too. Vanish has been a part of rogue/thief arsenal in many MMOs - why all of the sudden we need drop it? Just because you can't beat WE? Maybe other classes should abandon their healing skills, passive regens, protective auras/shields, plate armor, block, kiting? Do not think we are given a lot - Slayers/Choppas have medium armor, 25% and 50% damage buffs, charge, excellent single target and AOE abilities - shall we neuter them too?

WEs/WHs have anticlasses too. Tanks and healers are very difficult to kill after they got their patches. Defensive regen Magus (like Voltmagi for instance) is impossible to kill with WH. Regen BG like Drpetrov kills 2-3 WHs in one go. Stop whinging.

Why don't you put your main character/class in your signature so people can actually advise you?

PS. And we like playing in WBs! It is wb leaders who autokick us with that stupid addon and /5 or /t4 messages like "LFM all ex WHs" make you think we do not like wbs. We do but they do not invite us. They have own reasons but what can we do? We are not in charge of the class design to bring utility to wb's, we play the class we are given.

[Ramihrdus]

I only play destro so I don't know what facing Witch elves are like, but Witch hunters is really the only class I have a problem with and that is mainly because of their stagger (I think it's called).
It's way too powerful for a class that can kill you as fast as they can.

A few examples of what I'm talking about:
1: I come out of KA in Praag and see a WH just kill a player so I run up and hit him once, and Bam! I'm staggered and the WH runs away.

2: I get attacked by a WH, but he is not able to beat me so he staggers me and runs away. I summon my mount and begin to ride away when the same WH attacks me again. He is still not able to beat me so he staggers me and runs away.

3: The other day in Praag there was 7(!) Witch hunters in one spot going after box runners, and it doesn't matter if several people try to help because they'll just stagger you while quickly burning down the weakest player.

It's absolutely ridiculous that they have such a powerful get of of jail free card, and one that last so long. Applying a DoT to prevent them from entering stealth doesn't help either, because the stagger lasts so long that when I can finally move they are long gone.

This type of class shouldn't have a stagger at all, or at least not one that last more than a second or so. If a stealth class decides to attacks someone that turns out to be too powerful for them, then that should be a "sucks to be you" moment. Right now they don't have to worry about who they are attacking, because escaping is so easy.

[Sinisterror]

I play WE Since 2008 and Wh 2009 and i think they definetely dont need or shouldnt have Better charge than Medium Armor Mdps Charge which it is being used as a reason we/wh should have it. Should We give stealth then to rest of the melee dps? Or is Stealth the reason its the only light armour melee dps in the game, so obviously the strength of Stealth is so much that they do not NEED charge ffs. They also have 7s Disrupt 100% even for dots that are already on you, and there is no Morales that give this lvl of avoidance and these skills didnt work like this in Aor. Its "Undefendable" taken to extreme like Undefendable guard dmg existing is the same thing for 100% Morale avoidances, not one undefendable DAMAGING ability worked through morale avoidances in Aor except another Morale and offensive overrides the defensive as it should be. Everyone shouldnt have everything in this game if we want any kind of class identity to remain and all the icons are shattered already. Why dont you explain why does we/wh need charge and tell me real reasons, not "because others have it" lol

And if you need or want eternal stealth instead of 30sec tactical one you want too much. And nope The undefendable 6s stagger is the only reason why 30s stealth is enough without needing charge. If you change that, then We/Wh becomes unsatisfying because even if you do everything right, you still lose because lacking sufficient tools to work with=)

And btw im not the one whining, im providing my solutions, you do the " but what if " fallacy and dont provide anything but what iffs to my arguments, so it is you who is emotional and whining here, you started to shout about slayers and lets nerf them right? like i have said that : D wtf is wrong with people like this

[Demonito]

OK, you can say the same thing about some other classes, such as magus, SM, chosen, AM/shaman, all very good classes for roaming.

Even if I don't like rogue gameplay, it seems normal to be the main choice for solo roam and win 1v1

On destro, Am/Rp/Wp are far much overpowered than wh
Engi also have a cheated regen skill and wl can too spec regen and run away
Wh is incredibly strong but you can manage with the right spec (and class)

I only tried solo Sm/Wl on order, most of the time I could run away from a rr80 regen WE
They sure are no fun at all to duel but 1v2 they would die easy if you kite
Turning them into a WH copy would be a bit sad

I agree on the run away part that could be nerf ;
Problem is not the instant stealth+run as you can mount and catch them before the 45s CD stealth
It's the 6s stagger, 3s would be more fair

There are really a huge amount of changes for many classes to balance the game for duel
That said, it would be best that dps patch focus on boost rather than nerf

Concerning stealth, I'd suggest one major change :
Invisibility could be canceled, when busted and hit by a direct ST melee attack
To balance, add a 2min CD spell for no Ap ; while prowling/incognito you can't be detected for X seconds

To hit an invisible wh/we in the middle of a sc for more than 15s is kinda silly

[Sever1n]

Vanish mechanic is totaly fine. Target drop mechanic is very strong in any mmo against bad players who dont wish to learn fast target switches, but its healthy from my experience.

Wh and we need fixes in other directions. If you wish to know wich, go play 6vs6 ranked and they're weaknesses will be on full dispaly instantly. On top of that any wh and we knows how many micronerfs and fixes was applied to stealth mechanics and how many shenanigans they lost.

Boxing spec of WE need rework/nerf for long years, people basilion times explained why its toxic. Pls dont compare wh to it, its not even near to that lvl.

[Moonbiter]

Vanish mechanic is totaly fine. Target drop mechanic is very strong in any mmo against bad players who dont wish to learn fast target switches, but its healthy from my experience.

Nufin fine with vanish:
1. Its undefendabe/uncounterable
2. Nufin cost
3. Available for All(!) builds
4. Ruin fair duels

For me that seems exaggerated add OP bonus. E.g. mara to get Jump on target or 15sec aoe detaunt for Dok/Wp.