Siege & RvR Zone Idea

[Hazmy]

Siege & RvR Zone Idea

Faster and more Dynamic RvR

A couple of other forumers seemed to have liked my idea regarding Sieges in the other topic, so I will just post it here to see what others think and also promote talking about it. It's also my feedback to the RoR Team to consider for their RvR rework.

Currently many players are annoyed with random rams, sieges and wanted to increase the price of spawning a Ram. I think that's going the wrong way about it. Failed Rams are not a problem but a symptom of a bigger issue in the lakes.

It is too bothersome and ill-advised to siege in the current state of RvR, where majority never want to do it either due to the heavy defense-biased mechanics, difficulty, lag or any other reason, but mainly the difficulty of it. It takes too long, kills content in the lake, whether it fails or succeeds the opposite side tends to log out and that's harmful to the game.

Even if we argue whether Sieges are truly defense-biased or not, my main feedback is that zone defenses shouldn't be as big of a deal as they are right now and I would rather have defenses very hard but keep the game rolling, than defenses being over-supported that keeps both factions hostage to inaction and lead to boredom.

I don't want to go too deep into it in this suggestion, but I believe the current Keep Defense design is not future proof anyway and the higher the population goes the more impossible it will become for sieges to happen or be fun whatsover. So I think it needs to be changed to something else, preferably sooner than later.


Major Proposed Changes

Instead I would make Sieges easier and smoother to happen, to keep RvR rolling and active, with any or all of the changes below:
- Lower Door HPs significantly.
- Remove Keep Upgrades?
- Increase Oil Coldown by a lot, or make it a limited time use.
- Revise Siege rewards completely.

Door phase is arguably the least exciting part of a siege and likely should be shortened. Keep Upgrades can be a fun interactive option for guilds, but I believe Oil Control is too powerful as it is. Oil as a mechanic needs to be reworked in some way. Making it have charges would introduce a strategic element but also a come-back mechanic for failed sieges if defenders run out of oil.

Finally PvDoor needs to not grant the extreme rewards as it does now, Sieges should remain an option for the factions to invite action back and rally their side!

I would change the whole RvR zone-mechanics:
- 1 Star Keep to allow Sieges
- 2 Star Keep disables Enemy Keep Oil
- 3 Star Keep already Locks the zone if you own all 4 Battle Objectives

While 4 and 5 Star zones happened even recently in the lakes, it is usually a result of extreme stalling on both sides and I also think is a sympton of Sieges being terrible. Compressing the Zone Progression will increase activity and the pacing of RvR and would also allow splitting into multiple zones due to easier sieges & lockdowns.

The new 3 Star lockdown would especially create a sense of urgency in the lakes and encourage control of Battle Objectives more - while at the same time warbands would have the choice if they want to do a Siege or battle for lake control.

Alternatively, even if we keep all Defensive options for Sieges, the 3 Star Lockdown would promote splitting forces between Siege and Battle Objectives and instead of the current "all-in" blob fights at sieges, forces can be spread on multiple areas in a zone as well as at a Siege.

I think Sieges should be a lot more common and a less terrifying gameplay experience. Keeps and Forts should constantly be happening as part of the game, and smoothly, not some extra content most are afraid/bored of or can't be bothered to do. Would attacking be potential easier? Yes, but it will be easier for both sides, and the point is to encourage content happening, not discourage.

If such change would dramatically decrease Sieges from happening, it could also be always revised and give bonus incentives to do them.

WAAAGH!

[diedrake]

I do like your ideas a lot, especially sense the game was never ment to have such high population, which population is good dont get me wrong, but it also makes the rvr lakes very stagnant during main primetime, EU times.

My suggestion though, keep keep claiming a thing and rank ups such as:
Defence upgrades:
-increased door hps
- faster oil spawn
- upgrade guard numbers and threat ( such as basic guards can get to hero++)
- upgrade keep lord ( something like hero +++)

The hero ++ sugestions would be for maxed upgrade

Offence:
- more seige equipment able to be spawned
- increased damage for certain types of siege engines
- increase number or reduce time limit for rams to be spawned.

Also was thinking of bos having greater influence but i think that has already been tried.
Example
Defence has 2 bos: increased damage the npc defneder have or something like that
Offence has 2 bos: increased ram does on doors maybe?

Idk feels like during seiges 1/2 the population on both sides seem pretty much afking.

[saupreusse]

Star system:
I agree with the 3 star zones, as I consider 4 and 5 stars to be mostly unachievable if the zone is played 'normally'.

Door HP:
I agree that it can be horribly boring to ram in doors for 20 minutes, even if both sides are somewhat equal in numbers and there is a bit of action around posterns.
I would also suggest to simply buff the ram damage for every BO held by the attacking realm.
High HP gates usually aren't the deciding factor if a siege is successful or fails, but they can make the game very tedious.

Oil/keep claiming etc:
During high pop times taking an inner keep can become extremely difficult because of defense mechanics such as oil and locked posterns.
My suggestions are
- add siege towers if possible
- add fortress griffons for attackers to normal keep sieges
- maybe play around with oil numbers
- remove the ability to lock posterns

There is one more thing to consider:
If we make keep sieges easier, we also have to add a mechanic that allows a smaller force to be able to defend keeps against a zerging realm.
- link sieges and aao
- oil deals more dmg if the defending realm is outnumbered, based on aao
- add defender griffons to normal keep sieges, that allow outnumbered defenders to
Easily join the keep fight and/or set the respawn point inside the inner keep for heavily outnumbered defenders - scaling with aao.
- the ability to lock the postern should only be available to a heavily outnumbered defending realm.

Campaign:
Our/My suggestions covered two problems.
Making keep sieges easier and linking BOs to keep sieges thereby giving them a bit more meaning.
But there is still one more thing that we didnt talk about yet, and this is probably the most important point. All of this is irrelevant as long as we don't have a campaign. This is the one most important thing we got to fix. Without a campaign and a campaign goal there is no meaning to it all and people will just zerg for the easy crest drops.

[Nameless]

Mostly i like these but one major problem with making the zone rotation faster is the feel of loosing. Faster sieging, faster zone exchange, more tense feeling of loosing which maje ppl log off.

[Avernus]

So, in nutshell, you want a fast siege, combined with nerfed defence options.

Why bother to defend the keep in situation like this? Even worse, if siege will be fast, why not ninja enemy keep in different zone while they are zerging yours?

[diedrake]

pretty easy really, get cities off of a schedule. Put main sov pieces back into gold bags of city so there is more incentive to do that content. only if city is taken back to campaign as originally designed.

If Players never see city all well, its not like many now a days participate in city anyhow.

The reason to nerf defenece is because it is far easier to defend than attack. My proposition was that defenders would get improved defenses if guilds claim still. As of right now though RvR is so stale and boring, its hard to get motivation to go out unless with guild mates and discord lol.

[diedrake]

Mostly i like these but one major problem with making the zone rotation faster is the feel of loosing. Faster sieging, faster zone exchange, more tense feeling of loosing which maje ppl log off.

People are logging off out of boredom as well tbh.

[dasparkylad]

So, in nutshell, you want a fast siege, combined with nerfed defence options.

Why bother to defend the keep in situation like this? Even worse, if siege will be fast, why not ninja enemy keep in different zone while they are zerging yours?

Honestly that could be a good thing, if people want to zerg 1 keep and not pay attention let people take theirs. Right now you can afford to zerg 1 keep with every single member of dest/order as by the time people notice somebody trying to ninja a keep they'll be like 10% into it as it takes so long. This would encourage people to split up more and defend/take multiple zones at once reducing the tendency for people to just create mega blobs that barrel into each other, and if your blob is the smaller one you may as well quit for the night.

[kleinbuchstabe]

I agree that sieges are a boring and make many poeple go afk in front of the door. But:

Destructice Criticism:

I think this idea lead into a direction wich is gamebreaking.
What you sugest is like: the content is boring, so letz get over and done with it as quick as possible. But if we do so, sieges, wich are a part of the main content of rvr, become more or less obsolete. A keep siege is THE consequence of all the gameplay in a RvR zone. All you do in the RvR zone results in the capture of the enemy keep. If we make the siege rushable, it becomes less important, and we lead the whole RvR thing ad absurdum. In the next step we could delete keeps completely, make a big scenario out of the zones, with a zonelock at 500k points from kills and BOs... Make the siege (and zone lock) that fast, will only lead to a situation, where the lower populated zones get locked extremely fast, by a small amount of people. We will see zones swap and swap in no time, and people will run after the zones and locks. Imo your suggestions would have a similar impact to the game, like the castration of the city siege mechanic.

Constructive Suggestion

I agree that most sieges are kind of boring. But instead of get over sieges, what options exist to make sieges more interesting? I think the direction must be: Give the player opportunities to fight! Something to do while the ram opens the door. Dismantle the PvD, give people a possibility for PvP during a siege.

When i think about a keep siege, i see ladders and siege towers, a lot of fighting on the walls. We dont have ladders and towers in this game. But we have mechanics for atackers, to reach the wall and bring fights to the siege:

(1) Orcapults, wich are allready in the game. Make them work as intended, and make them regular Siege-Weapons. Mybe 1-2 max.
(2) On live server we had Ratogres who could threw people up the wall
(3) and Griffons/ Manticors, wich brought people to the outer wall by jump down on it (similar to forts).

So there are mechanics. Bring the fight to the outer wall and the third floor. Create some PvP action. Maybe we dont need rat ogres again... but reactivate and expand Orcapults. They are allready implemented in the game. Make them working as intended. Griffons and Manticors are also implemented inside the forts, so why not implement them in keep sieges. Not only the siege step of outer wall would be less boring. Also the inner keep. Instead of only blocking gate and postern, you could bring the fight to the third floor. Maybe when the outer wall is open, the Griffons and Manticors could bring you to the top floor of the keep, like they do in fortress fights.


At the same time, we have to bring more defenders on the wall, or inside the keep in general. PvD happens not only because there is nothing to do for most of the atackers. It also happens because of empty keeps. So we must make it more easy for defenders to reach the inside of a keep.

(1) Maybe like it was in the past, by respawn mechanic, as long as the outer gate is up. When you die in keep range, you will respawn inside. Nobody is motivated to run all the way from warcamp again, when you get farmed while you try to get inside. Use the fortress mechanic! As long as the outer door is up, you spawn inside. It works in fortress, make it work in keeps also.

(2) We also have a mechanic, that the flightmasters can bring players into the keep, when you bring them a supply. How about expanding this. Maybe you could buy a ticket to the keep for warcrests. Or genesis crests, whatever currency the game offers. More solo player defenders could come faster to the keep => more fights, more action.


So imo we should make sieges more interesting and accessible for both sides. Instead of down grading sieges in generel, better upgrade it. Give more opportunities. More PvP, less PvD. That could lead to something good.

[dasparkylad]

I agree that sieges are a boring and make many poeple go afk in front of the door. But:

Destructice Criticism:

I think this idea lead into a direction wich is gamebreaking.
What you sugest is like: the content is boring, so letz get over and done with it as quick as possible. But if we do so, sieges, wich are a part of the main content of rvr, become more or less obsolete. A keep siege is THE consequence of all the gameplay in a RvR zone. All you do in the RvR zone results in the capture of the enemy keep. If we make the siege rushable, it becomes less important, and we lead the whole RvR thing ad absurdum. In the next step we could delete keeps completely, make a big scenario out of the zones, with a zonelock at 500k points from kills and BOs... Make the siege (and zone lock) that fast, will only lead to a situation, where the lower populated zones get locked extremely fast, by a small amount of people. We will see zones swap and swap in no time, and people will run after the zones and locks. Imo your suggestions would have a similar impact to the game, like the castration of the city siege mechanic.

Constructive Suggestion

I agree that most sieges are kind of boring. But instead of get over sieges, what options exist to make sieges more interesting? I think the direction must be: Give the player opportunities to fight! Something to do while the ram opens the door. Dismantle the PvD, give people a possibility for PvP during a siege.

When i think about a keep siege, i see ladders and siege towers, a lot of fighting on the walls. We dont have ladders and towers in this game. But we have mechanics for atackers, to reach the wall and bring fights to the siege:

(1) Orcapults, wich are allready in the game. Make them work as intended, and make them regular Siege-Weapons. Mybe 1-2 max.
(2) On live server we had Ratogres who could threw people up the wall
(3) and Griffons/ Manticors, wich brought people to the outer wall by jump down on it (similar to forts).

So there are mechanics. Bring the fight to the outer wall and the third floor. Create some PvP action. Maybe we dont need rat ogres again... but reactivate and expand Orcapults. They are allready implemented in the game. Make them working as intended. Griffons and Manticors are also implemented inside the forts, so why not implement them in keep sieges. Not only the siege step of outer wall would be less boring. Also the inner keep. Instead of only blocking gate and postern, you could bring the fight to the third floor. Maybe when the outer wall is open, the Griffons and Manticors could bring you to the top floor of the keep, like they do in fortress fights.


At the same time, we have to bring more defenders on the wall, or inside the keep in general. PvD happens not only because there is nothing to do for most of the atackers. It also happens because of empty keeps. So we must make it more easy for defenders to reach the inside of a keep.

(1) Maybe like it was in the past, by respawn mechanic, as long as the outer gate is up. When you die in keep range, you will respawn inside. Nobody is motivated to run all the way from warcamp again, when you get farmed while you try to get inside. Use the fortress mechanic! As long as the outer door is up, you spawn inside. It works in fortress, make it work in keeps also.

(2) We also have a mechanic, that the flightmasters can bring players into the keep, when you bring them a supply. How about expanding this. Maybe you could buy a ticket to the keep for warcrests. Or genesis crests, whatever currency the game offers. More solo player defenders could come faster to the keep => more fights, more action.


So imo we should make sieges more interesting and accessible for both sides. Instead of down grading sieges in generel, better upgrade it. Give more opportunities. More PvP, less PvD. That could lead to something good.

If they wanted to do a lot of this they'd also need to put caps on the people in zones, as if you have 200 people vs 100 in a keep and add more options to get into the keep all that does is make wiping the keep that much faster. Right now the keeps are basically only takeable by having a big zerg as if you have even numbers you won't be breaking through the funnel.

Honestly a huge issue is the keeps are to small, which is something I don't know how we could fix without making the keeps into a scenario like cities as they can't really increase the size without entirely redoing every map, which would be a huge undertaking with a full dev house team. though making an entirely new scenario for each keep would also be a huge undertaking, even if they made every keep in each tier have the same one.