Degradation of average player skill: why the Scenario system rework is urgently needed

[mazi761111]

I want to know nocturnalguest game mian class id，，I will learn how to play later

[Murador]

Its way better to actually ban solo/duo and force 3+ to q SCs, because SCs are group content no matter if q them solo or not. Learning comes from playing as a group. Solo roaming is way less skillful then 6v6 or real GvG. You use a word "premade", but its most likely you havent ever encountered one. If you actually joined in 2021 as you account says then you sadly miss out how active AoR/RoR premade scene has been. What you encounter since 2021 are in majority of cases casual lazy daddies grouped up to have fun. I have explained myself on a matter so many times that now ill try to put it as simple as i can - PREmade is a constant group of same players who PREdecide their roles, tactics and strategy, they do have everything scheduled, strict and totally hardcore. Such groups, especially after 6v6 mechanics change are close to none existant. I can literally only name 1 group that is to be called "premade" at the moment which is currently playing, inb4 we've had 10-15+ of such.

It might be true that I never encountered a full fleshed out premade - but that's clearly not needed to beat a group of solo queuing people. I can tell you one thing: If you make SCs only premade they will just die - like you said there are not enough people queueing for that - and probably one premade stomps the other resulting in them stopping to queue - you would need an a lot bigger pool of people interested in that so you could have a MMR based matchmaking for this. For a solo queue you actually need a lot less players to create a MMR based MM.

Some learning might come from playing in a group: but you are still in a group even in a solo SC - it might be harder to coordinate, but you still can. And if people enjoy these they might want to queue some premade SCs - you basically want to make the barrier of entry lower - not higher.

[jwolnik]

Yeah massive topic to get taken care of!
I’m playing since 1 year coz i rly love WH world and im dedicated to play RoR.

But unfortunetly im witness of so many new breed to drop off, like my few friends that i invite to the game. They had hell great fun T1 falling in love with the game and then dropped early T4 because they felt like a trash and game was unplayable for a long time for them.

This community survived alot, and still got playerbase, but let’s not be stupid and belive that it will survive longer without NEW player base.

+1 great post

[jwolnik]

Its way better to actually ban solo/duo and force 3+ to q SCs, because SCs are group content no matter if q them solo or not. Learning comes from playing as a group. Solo roaming is way less skillful then 6v6 or real GvG. You use a word "premade", but its most likely you havent ever encountered one. If you actually joined in 2021 as you account says then you sadly miss out how active AoR/RoR premade scene has been. What you encounter since 2021 are in majority of cases casual lazy daddies grouped up to have fun. I have explained myself on a matter so many times that now ill try to put it as simple as i can - PREmade is a constant group of same players who PREdecide their roles, tactics and strategy, they do have everything scheduled, strict and totally hardcore. Such groups, especially after 6v6 mechanics change are close to none existant. I can literally only name 1 group that is to be called "premade" at the moment which is currently playing, inb4 we've had 10-15+ of such.

It might be true that I never encountered a full fleshed out premade - but that's clearly not needed to beat a group of solo queuing people. I can tell you one thing: If you make SCs only premade they will just die - like you said there are not enough people queueing for that - and probably one premade stomps the other resulting in them stopping to queue - you would need an a lot bigger pool of people interested in that so you could have a MMR based matchmaking for this. For a solo queue you actually need a lot less players to create a MMR based MM.

Some learning might come from playing in a group: but you are still in a group even in a solo SC - it might be harder to coordinate, but you still can. And if people enjoy these they might want to queue some premade SCs - you basically want to make the barrier of entry lower - not higher.

Hell nah!
How can you say that you still can coordinate the random solo quened ppl vs premades.

Nah premades should be in a different league that you can also quene as solo or duo but with some renown or exp boost as a reward for courage

[jwolnik]

Its way better to actually ban solo/duo and force 3+ to q SCs, because SCs are group content no matter if q them solo or not. Learning comes from playing as a group. Solo roaming is way less skillful then 6v6 or real GvG. You use a word "premade", but its most likely you havent ever encountered one. If you actually joined in 2021 as you account says then you sadly miss out how active AoR/RoR premade scene has been. What you encounter since 2021 are in majority of cases casual lazy daddies grouped up to have fun. I have explained myself on a matter so many times that now ill try to put it as simple as i can - PREmade is a constant group of same players who PREdecide their roles, tactics and strategy, they do have everything scheduled, strict and totally hardcore. Such groups, especially after 6v6 mechanics change are close to none existant. I can literally only name 1 group that is to be called "premade" at the moment which is currently playing, inb4 we've had 10-15+ of such.

It might be true that I never encountered a full fleshed out premade - but that's clearly not needed to beat a group of solo queuing people. I can tell you one thing: If you make SCs only premade they will just die - like you said there are not enough people queueing for that - and probably one premade stomps the other resulting in them stopping to queue - you would need an a lot bigger pool of people interested in that so you could have a MMR based matchmaking for this. For a solo queue you actually need a lot less players to create a MMR based MM.

Some learning might come from playing in a group: but you are still in a group even in a solo SC - it might be harder to coordinate, but you still can. And if people enjoy these they might want to queue some premade SCs - you basically want to make the barrier of entry lower - not higher.

Hell nah!
You can’t say that solo quened group can be coordinated to face premades… Nah nah, that’s a delusion.

There should be a seperate league for premades 5-6 that you can also chose to join as a solo or duo for special renown / exp boost reward for courage

[Cyrinael]

As always, a masterful post from Only! Allow me to pick it up and take it a bit further by discussing what I would like to see in the short-term from a Scenario matchmaking system rework.

First off, here is how I think Scenarios should be in an optimal world:

• Scenarios should be playable by solos, 6-mans and everything in between.
• Scenario winrates should be somewhat representative of individual and group player skill instead of the group size you queue with (generally speaking). Winrates of >70% and <30% should be the exception rather than the norm.
• Scenarios are not ranked 6v6 games and I do not believe in bringing these two game modes closer together. The population for ranked shows it is a niche gamemode and bringing these two modes together will probably diminish the Scenario playerbase further.
• Scenarios should be an alternative game mode for people additionally to RvR, that means we should have regular Scenarios pops (ideally waiting time < 5-10 mins).

That being said, in an optimal world, we have a good ladder-based match making system that attributes individual skill as MMR to everyone and provides good matches for everyone. In my opinion, that would be totally the wrong approach because of the low number of players queueing for Scenarios, so my suggestions are more pragmatic instead of being idealistic.

Considering above points here are my pragmatic, short-term solutions that do not incorporate a lot of work (hopefully):

1. Remove the possibility to play full pug vs premade in all Scenarios.
2. Remove the possibility to play double premade in 12- and 18-man Scenarios; tripple premade in 24-man Scenarios.
3. Focus on matching pugs vs pugs as well as premade + pug vs premade + pug as close as possible.
4. Add the possibility for cross-realm matching premades against each other.

I do understand that these changes do not solve every issue with Scenarios and there are tons of other good ideas being discussed, but I believe these three changes would go a long way in tackling the most egregious problems (pug farming; poor matchups, side-stacking and long waiting times if you queue on the stacked side), while also being fast to implement (change (1), (2) and (3) are simple rules; change (4), while taking more work, is already implemented in Solo Ranked).

I think Scenarios have been in a terrible state for a long time and at this point I am happy to see any change as small as it may be. Which is why I refrain from proposing big changes that need a lot of work. I do think, considering how many problems we have with Scenarios, we can do a lot with very little effort.

[Muurloen]

Solo queuers need to be in their own scenario, or can only queue discordant.

Discordant should also be the weekend event.

You need to be in a group of 2 or more to queue in the main queue scenario line.