Degradation of average player skill: why the Scenario system rework is urgently needed

[Martok]

The downfall of Scenarios has consistently stripped the playerbase of the best self-improvement tool the game had to offer for players who do not have the proper support of a guild/community.


...


In my eyes, having a working and fair Scenario system should be the number 1 development priority for the game since it directly influences the average player skill/quality...

And player retention. However the time lag between when the issue was first stated as 'in the works' and now should tell everyone all they need to know.

[Murador]

Honestly though, I think even with a rework, things won’t change much. The mentality of how players approach MMOs has changed significantly since 2008, with the grouping and community aspects of MMOs being replaced by players seeking a more casual solo experience where they can play the game as the main character without having to put any effort into working with others. This is seen every weekend in the weekend sc event, where players will suggest every change under the sun to fix scenarios, with the only thing that's never on the table for consideration being them joining a group.

I disagree - I think the problem why people don't learn their classes is actually by being always in a group taking only fights they clearly win by numbers. I would argue the average solo roamer is vastly superior than the average player in RoR. Also if you look at WoW arena or any competitive game like starcraft II, AoE II, LoL the level has risen insanely. The problem is just the game doesn't have a SINGLE game mode you can play solo that is competitive in any way and the game encourages more numbers for everything.

there is no need to restrict grouping up (nor restricting solo/pugs tbf). premades and pugs and all this story is not a real issue (and never ever has been). thru years of weekly "premades vs pugs" threads its clear as night and day that there are no "premades" currently playing this game even, there are various "groups" of various levels of skills, and mostly, e.g. in 9 cases out of 10, those groups are not ranked ready.

This statement makes just zero sense. So you are saying all competitive games not queuing premades into solo players are wrong? Even the pug premades build a decent composition with geared players with higher RR. Queues need to be seperated - if then premades are empty because people only enjoyed steamrolling pugs - well then so be it.

1. Make scenarios solo/duo queue only - and no the discordant SC without any rewards is not it.
2. add a weekend event for premade scnerios where you ONLY face other premades. Make it ranked - give it rewards for the vict/triumph rings.
3. icentivize doing SCs with comparable rewards to RvR
4. MM trying to balance a hidden MMR and number of healer and tanks in some way.

The new player T4 SC experience will still be bad as you basically have less experience (not so bad as most RoR players are very casual compared to like WoW) and a lot less stats - and before anbody argues you can outplay it - its mathematically not possible if the SoV player has hands if you are in conq gear.

[Culexus]

Honestly though, I think even with a rework, things won’t change much. The mentality of how players approach MMOs has changed significantly since 2008, with the grouping and community aspects of MMOs being replaced by players seeking a more casual solo experience where they can play the game as the main character without having to put any effort into working with others. This is seen every weekend in the weekend sc event, where players will suggest every change under the sun to fix scenarios, with the only thing that's never on the table for consideration being them joining a group.

I disagree - I think the problem why people don't learn their classes is actually by being always in a group taking only fights they clearly win by numbers. I would argue the average solo roamer is vastly superior than the average player in RoR. Also if you look at WoW arena or any competitive game like starcraft II, AoE II, LoL the level has risen insanely. The problem is just the game doesn't have a SINGLE game mode you can play solo that is competitive in any way and the game encourages more numbers for everything.

By solo, I mean players that don't play with others as part of a coordinated group and/or have little to no social connections within the game. Solo roaming is it's own thing, with good solo roamers not usually being solo players. The solo player mentality that's taken over the server, and MMOs in general, is imo the main cause of this degradation of player skill.

Although I completely agree with what people have been saying in this and many other threads about how to fix scenarios, I don't really see how it will drastically change anything in the long run, and may even have the unintended consequence of making it worse.

Let's say that solo and premade are split, 2/2/2 is always up, barriers are removed, and guards are brought back with an effective comeback mechanic. Is that going to teach dps how to select targets, when to switch, and how to assist? Is the "I don't guard, I'm dps" tank going to learn how to guard, guardswap, and time-effective punts? Are solo players suddenly going to join Discord warbands in RvR and be willing to spend their playtime following the orders of the warband leader over joining a pugband and doing their own thing in the blob? We can only think about information that we're exposed to. If these players don't group up, they will never know what they are doing wrong, so they'll never be able to improve.

Once again, I 100% agree with Leftay's analysis and that of other contributors to this thread. But it still remains that even if scenarios get fixed, this is a group game where are large portion of the players don't want to group, so most will never learn how to play the game beyond a very basic level. And with the game full of small/dead guilds that can't make a meaningful impact on the game or build any sort of community for these players to potentially join, more and more players have joined the blob. This has been going on long enough that it's all many new players know of the game, out blob the enemy blob of solos with your blob of solos to win. Bonus points if you can follow a warband leader on your side with your blob without having to join the warband, extra bonus points if that warband is looking for players in /5 at the same time. Sadly, unless there is an organic change within the community itself, this may be the future of the server.

[Murador]

By solo, I mean players that don't play with others as part of a coordinated group and/or have little to no social connections within the game. Solo roaming is it's own thing, with good solo roamers not usually being solo players. The solo player mentality that's taken over the server, and MMOs in general, is imo the main cause of this degradation of player skill.

Although I completely agree with what people have been saying in this and many other threads about how to fix scenarios, I don't really see how it will drastically change anything in the long run, and may even have the unintended consequence of making it worse.

Let's say that solo and premade are split, 2/2/2 is always up, barriers are removed, and guards are brought back with an effective comeback mechanic. Is that going to teach dps how to select targets, when to switch, and how to assist? Is the "I don't guard, I'm dps" tank going to learn how to guard, guardswap, and time-effective punts? Are solo players suddenly going to join Discord warbands in RvR and be willing to spend their playtime following the orders of the warband leader over joining a pugband and doing their own thing in the blob? We can only think about information that we're exposed to. If these players don't group up, they will never know what they are doing wrong, so they'll never be able to improve.

There are quite some good solo roamers that prefer solo/small scale roaming over warbands playing more in the lower pop zones.

Well SCs will suddenly be more close - more fun - ofc there will still be the occasional stomp. I loved midtier SCs solo queuing - I tried a ton of builds - I even got intelligence and willpower set for AM at 35 which was maybe not smartest to preserve crests . At the moment you dont get even the chance to learn anything in most SCs.

That would be probably like you playing Starcraft II or Age of Empires II vs me - but my units have 20% more hp (not that it would matter) because I probably have tripple your APM + game sense + played 2000 hours.

I know some kind of progression is nice in a MMORPG but the gear gap is too big for a PvP game.

[nocturnalguest]

So you are saying all competitive games not queuing premades into solo players are wrong? Even the pug premades build a decent composition with geared players with higher RR. Queues need to be seperated - if then premades are empty because people only enjoyed steamrolling pugs - well then so be it.

1. Make scenarios solo/duo queue only - and no the discordant SC without any rewards is not it.
2. add a weekend event for premade scnerios where you ONLY face other premades. Make it ranked - give it rewards for the vict/triumph rings.
3. icentivize doing SCs with comparable rewards to RvR
4. MM trying to balance a hidden MMR and number of healer and tanks in some way.

The new player T4 SC experience will still be bad as you basically have less experience (not so bad as most RoR players are very casual compared to like WoW) and a lot less stats - and before anbody argues you can outplay it - its mathematically not possible if the SoV player has hands if you are in conq gear.

Its way better to actually ban solo/duo and force 3+ to q SCs, because SCs are group content no matter if q them solo or not. Learning comes from playing as a group. Solo roaming is way less skillful then 6v6 or real GvG. You use a word "premade", but its most likely you havent ever encountered one. If you actually joined in 2021 as you account says then you sadly miss out how active AoR/RoR premade scene has been. What you encounter since 2021 are in majority of cases casual lazy daddies grouped up to have fun. I have explained myself on a matter so many times that now ill try to put it as simple as i can - PREmade is a constant group of same players who PREdecide their roles, tactics and strategy, they do have everything scheduled, strict and totally hardcore. Such groups, especially after 6v6 mechanics change are close to none existant. I can literally only name 1 group that is to be called "premade" at the moment which is currently playing, inb4 we've had 10-15+ of such. What you, me and other encounter in SCs are randomly gathered groups of whatever was online in /g /a /5 /friendlist. There is a huge difference. Like the title says - degradation of average player skill. Indeed, thats the case.

Also, another point you dont clearly understand is that you do hit with your very "smart" ideas the very casual and most common playerbase who will q as 2-5 friends on discord. How do you divide them with (gods forgive me) "premades" or even just "groups"?

tl;dr - you cant even imagine how beaten this dead horse is. i, and others, are not joking saying weekly "premade whine thread", it all has been talked thru so many times and in such details that just believe me - what you say will do way more harm then good.

edit: may take a look e.g. here viewtopic.php?p=566400#p566400 actually strongly advice to real whole thread. all you need to know is written there

[nocturnalguest]

By solo, I mean players that don't play with others as part of a coordinated group and/or have little to no social connections within the game. Solo roaming is it's own thing, with good solo roamers not usually being solo players. The solo player mentality that's taken over the server, and MMOs in general, is imo the main cause of this degradation of player skill.

Although I completely agree with what people have been saying in this and many other threads about how to fix scenarios, I don't really see how it will drastically change anything in the long run, and may even have the unintended consequence of making it worse.

Let's say that solo and premade are split, 2/2/2 is always up, barriers are removed, and guards are brought back with an effective comeback mechanic. Is that going to teach dps how to select targets, when to switch, and how to assist? Is the "I don't guard, I'm dps" tank going to learn how to guard, guardswap, and time-effective punts? Are solo players suddenly going to join Discord warbands in RvR and be willing to spend their playtime following the orders of the warband leader over joining a pugband and doing their own thing in the blob? We can only think about information that we're exposed to. If these players don't group up, they will never know what they are doing wrong, so they'll never be able to improve.

Once again, I 100% agree with Leftay's analysis and that of other contributors to this thread. But it still remains that even if scenarios get fixed, this is a group game where are large portion of the players don't want to group, so most will never learn how to play the game beyond a very basic level. And with the game full of small/dead guilds that can't make a meaningful impact on the game or build any sort of community for these players to potentially join, more and more players have joined the blob. This has been going on long enough that it's all many new players know of the game, out blob the enemy blob of solos with your blob of solos to win. Bonus points if you can follow a warband leader on your side with your blob without having to join the warband, extra bonus points if that warband is looking for players in /5 at the same time. Sadly, unless there is an organic change within the community itself, this may be the future of the server.

I'd love to note, just like your first post - incredibly well written. I second this one and the first one.

[shoelessHN]

Ah yes, premade is only the old ranked groups. None of the /5 groups count. And we get it, you hate solo Qs -- as demonstrated by your countless posts.

[nocturnalguest]

Ah yes, premade is only the old ranked groups. None of the /5 groups count. And we get it, you hate solo Qs -- as demonstrated by your countless posts.

My countless posts are actually describe how i solo q myself and how casual im. So once again im mistaken for elitist. So nah, i dont hate solo q. What i do actually hate is pointless whine, childish behavior, and delusional refusal to meet consequences of decisions made by other "casual" lazy daddies who create salt mines on forums.

And those are actually pretty simple - strong childish will to reap rewards of group content as solo (aka solo warfronts issue), strong antisocial behaviour and refusal to group up (cause lazy daddy, cause time blablabla, we've been there, i know its ok to constantly play 30-40+ SCs on weekend as solo but its plain impossible to /w anyone from /5, yeah i get it), strong will to make excuses for loses (FULL SOV 80+ PREMADES ARE EVERYWHERE), strong will to refuse to "gitgud" (blame everything and everyone but cba to record your own play etc).

Edit: and this, very sadly, leads into total delusion of how things actually are, who groups up, for what reasons, how those groups actually are, what they do, how etc. All the whiners simply do not know how it actually looks from the other side. I, and thankfully alot of other folks who also fight this stuff, do know how grouping actually looks like.

[Sever1n]

That people want to log in and have fun ingame not commiting into group/wb play is purely normal. And SC was that place when discordants was introduced. Sadly players who pref win not by skill but just by gear and cooping tried to spoil even them.

Discordants are still there. Problem is that people dont que them. Why pugs pref to feed overgeared prems? I believe in sheer power of stupidity. Feels like people this days cant even read description of discordants.

Same with ranked. They are there, but comunity degradation leaded to point where majority of players branded them bad (i heard a ton of apologistic crap abot them), cos who need sweaty figths when u can blob in rvr or make pugstomping prem.

U have options, but u choose not to use them.

About rework of sc, ranked, city there was ton of posts before. Devs just dont hear us and dont see probelm/dont want or dont know how to fix it.

Server have surprisefully good online recently, but the quality of game dropped significantly, wich leading in that all people interested in interesting and fun equal figths leave game, and only casuals left, and then u start to see those unholy blobs in rvr, not guarding snb tanks in sc, pug thet comit act of feeding ingnoring discordants etc.

Sadly in terms of comunity and coordination server in really bad spot compared to what i saw when i came here.

Devs cant event fix the que balance and 4vs4 and no healer que is normal sigth. Situation is so frustrating at this point that people are tired of discussing it and see no hope of improvement.

[Endari]

I don't believe people are not queuing discordants just because they are "stupid" it's mainly due to how badly its been implemented. Random maps suck who the hell wants a 3v3 phoenix gate?, weekend event maps that never pop sucks. I'd gladly que discordant weekend event maps if it was viable.