Why punish PvP-players and reward winning-team-joiners?

[Rapzel]

a) Progression and AAO
AAO is good for progressing faster if you can outorganize the enemy outnumbering side, players and guilds have been swapping to the underdog side for years on RoR. There is the bonus exp/rp buff you get if you logged from a flagged outnumbering toon to the outnumbered realm and flag up, 50% bonus. Stacking with Potion of Acclaim and AAO. But why are more people not doing it then(?)

Because the majority of players struggle 1:1, when this is scaled to be 1:2 or 1:4 it moves towards being impossible, this as well as 100*0 and 400*0 are both 0.

The blob is too powerful and that is it. With the changes to the game that has happened under the last 4 years, none have really been beneficial for small scale. In 2019 a good 6 man could take on a bad warband and at least stand toe to toe.

b) tools to be succesful when outnumbered
It is a fine line to allow for smaller forces to defeat a bigger force.
But right now the main ways to play outnumbered is to bunker up inside a funnel possiton, or gank the supplylines (tails) of the bigger groups roaming around.
There are barely any tools available or left, for you to deal with being outnumbered. AAO helps you progress, but you need to create the succes yourself.

Okay and what were those tools?

Ability and tank rework made tanks some sort of DPS hybrid that all should have punts apparently. The normalisation have made them unfun and generic. Playing to you composition's strengths is gone and instead it's a massive blob vs. blob where whoever have the most AoE wins. WB Vs. WB used to contain 1-2 ST groups during 2021-2022 that is completely gone and WB Vs. WB surpassed the ungabunga of 2020 where the meta was mSH + Choppa/BO + Shaman for moral pump and coordinate m4 drop. Which was panic fixed by Devs that still to this day affects the gameplay.

Avoidance and mitigation of damage have been changed over and over again, guard is a whole mess compared to how it worked in 2018 and even back then there had been several changes compared to how it worked on live. Just take the interaction between guard and undefendable damage.
The neutered tanks that are in the game feel awful to play at the moment, and in particular KotBS who finally got the damage the solo players were asking for while the group support is null and void, it went from rhe strongest tank in the game to being a worse chosen, you provide focused mending, guard and resistance buff.

AoE snares have been heavily nerfed because they were too oppressive for melee to deal with. Did anyone take two minutes to think about how this would affect ranged careers and kiting? Add in the revert of several abilities back to 1.48, where are we now? Why were only a certain number of abilities reverted? Careers that could deal with certain over performing careers are neutered and people ask themselves why the killboard looks the way it does. I am unsure if I ever seen such a perverse incentive in an mmorpg as in the tank rework in conjunction with the "revert".

c) incentive
Right now the game has had its endgame best in slot armor sets for about 3-4 years and there are no new gears to grind for the veterans. Meaning that the messurement of succes has become screenshots of how many kills vs deaths you can accumulate, doesnt matter how you get the kill. A 50vs2 kill, still counts as BiS toons doesnt need renown or crests.

I have never, nor will I belived in the winnerjoining crossrealming argument. I dont think anyone who is dying in the same zone is logging over just to stand afk watching other people ram, beating on the keeplord and getting 200rp tick. I think its more of a case of the realm who is surviving, getting a couple kills are playing longer and more people who log on stay logged on. And that creates the momentumswings in cases where zone-attendance suddenly switches. Mixed with warbandleaders logging out and suddenly its -24 players on one side.

What the game kinda needs is incentive to spread out, to chase gear and play the objectives again and not just be a kill-succes-messurement contest no matter the cost, because the cost is the fun and population honestly. Power scaling with AAO would probably never work, but more tools to dealing with being outnumbered could potentially help with people wanting to play the aao side.

Killboard & Scenario summery window is currently the endgame of RoR. A game that is built up to be a Realm Campaign against the enemy realm contesting and capturing territory from eachother, we need to go back to the roots and put the "care" back into the foundation of the game.

I highly doubt the lack of gear and renown progression is what keeps people from logging in. Spamming AoE and blobbing is a bigger detriment to the server population. This in conjunction with the shift towards symmetric balance has made the game boring.

[BoriqOne]

a) Progression and AAO
AAO is good for progressing faster if you can outorganize the enemy outnumbering side, players and guilds have been swapping to the underdog side for years on RoR. There is the bonus exp/rp buff you get if you logged from a flagged outnumbering toon to the outnumbered realm and flag up, 50% bonus. Stacking with Potion of Acclaim and AAO. But why are more people not doing it then(?)

Because the majority of players struggle 1:1, when this is scaled to be 1:2 or 1:4 it moves towards being impossible, this as well as 100*0 and 400*0 are both 0.

The blob is too powerful and that is it. With the changes to the game that has happened under the last 4 years, none have really been beneficial for small scale. In 2019 a good 6 man could take on a bad warband and at least stand toe to toe.

b) tools to be succesful when outnumbered
It is a fine line to allow for smaller forces to defeat a bigger force.
But right now the main ways to play outnumbered is to bunker up inside a funnel possiton, or gank the supplylines (tails) of the bigger groups roaming around.
There are barely any tools available or left, for you to deal with being outnumbered. AAO helps you progress, but you need to create the succes yourself.

Okay and what were those tools?

Ability and tank rework made tanks some sort of DPS hybrid that all should have punts apparently. The normalisation have made them unfun and generic. Playing to you composition's strengths is gone and instead it's a massive blob vs. blob where whoever have the most AoE wins. WB Vs. WB used to contain 1-2 ST groups during 2021-2022 that is completely gone and WB Vs. WB surpassed the ungabunga of 2020 where the meta was mSH + Choppa/BO + Shaman for moral pump and coordinate m4 drop. Which was panic fixed by Devs that still to this day affects the gameplay.

Avoidance and mitigation of damage have been changed over and over again, guard is a whole mess compared to how it worked in 2018 and even back then there had been several changes compared to how it worked on live. Just take the interaction between guard and undefendable damage.
The neutered tanks that are in the game feel awful to play at the moment, and in particular KotBS who finally got the damage the solo players were asking for while the group support is null and void, it went from rhe strongest tank in the game to being a worse chosen, you provide focused mending, guard and resistance buff.

AoE snares have been heavily nerfed because they were too oppressive for melee to deal with. Did anyone take two minutes to think about how this would affect ranged careers and kiting? Add in the revert of several abilities back to 1.48, where are we now? Why were only a certain number of abilities reverted? Careers that could deal with certain over performing careers are neutered and people ask themselves why the killboard looks the way it does. I am unsure if I ever seen such a perverse incentive in an mmorpg as in the tank rework in conjunction with the "revert".

c) incentive
Right now the game has had its endgame best in slot armor sets for about 3-4 years and there are no new gears to grind for the veterans. Meaning that the messurement of succes has become screenshots of how many kills vs deaths you can accumulate, doesnt matter how you get the kill. A 50vs2 kill, still counts as BiS toons doesnt need renown or crests.

I have never, nor will I belived in the winnerjoining crossrealming argument. I dont think anyone who is dying in the same zone is logging over just to stand afk watching other people ram, beating on the keeplord and getting 200rp tick. I think its more of a case of the realm who is surviving, getting a couple kills are playing longer and more people who log on stay logged on. And that creates the momentumswings in cases where zone-attendance suddenly switches. Mixed with warbandleaders logging out and suddenly its -24 players on one side.

What the game kinda needs is incentive to spread out, to chase gear and play the objectives again and not just be a kill-succes-messurement contest no matter the cost, because the cost is the fun and population honestly. Power scaling with AAO would probably never work, but more tools to dealing with being outnumbered could potentially help with people wanting to play the aao side.

Killboard & Scenario summery window is currently the endgame of RoR. A game that is built up to be a Realm Campaign against the enemy realm contesting and capturing territory from eachother, we need to go back to the roots and put the "care" back into the foundation of the game.

I highly doubt the lack of gear and renown progression is what keeps people from logging in. Spamming AoE and blobbing is a bigger detriment to the server population. This in conjunction with the shift towards symmetric balance has made the game boring.

Well said mate. I'm in complete agreement with you.

[Morradin]

And you base it- on what exactly? Since I don't remember any kind of survey asking players if they play one side, or both.

Because people like to play the "Entire" game. All of the content. Not just 50% of it. Seriously, how many gamers do you know that play only HALF of a game's content? I do not know any.

I know a lot. Guess its different if you are not a member of a xrealming guild

Again, good for you. Here's a cookie. You are still in the minority.

[alphafx1]

Good evening gits and gentlemen,

but maybe we can brainstorm some solutions to the ever growing problematic of PvDoor.

to answer your questons. the problem with PvDoor, is actually a problem with BO's not being significant enough to obtain to stop a keep siege.
years ago a system was introduced to do this. it was abandoned for some reason.

If turning in supplies were much more profitable for door repair, as it is now they are only like +2. Even handing in 10 boxes at a time does nothing.
but if each supply gave like +25. well now youre gonna have a problem with not holding BO's.
but thats not how it is.


not to mention introducing a BO system into RVR that works like battle for praag/gromgril crossing sc. some type of capture mechanic.
With all BO's open at all times. you never really know where the fight is, where to go ect. this is why most zones have 1 BO basically everyone just zergs.
If the BO captured, as it does some SCS, then you would know where to actually go to find the fight.

Though a lot of RVR players hate this idea, because they dont actually like to pvp. they would rather sit on walls and go to the next floor than participate in any pvp.
if you want to PVP, just do SCs. RVR is for PVE/keep sitting. box running.

[WaaaghBoy88]

I have been browsing this thread. I honestly I agree with most posts, but I find, a little bit of something for everything is what will help the game endure and grant others to "suck it up and deal with it." Because as it stands, it is in a very poor situation right now.

For starters, the RvR scene is frankly terribad; Blob-zering across both factions with little rewards for those who blob other than weekly influence or little to nothing for map-flip RR bursts, whereas you get some beefy RR return from killing random high-ranking players as a solo-player, or with friends. But forget being able to contend with the zerg-blob as a ganking sixman. You may get some rewards as either role from map-flips, etc, but generally the RR-gain/Crest-gain is pitiful. Only once in my entire life of playing this game, did I ever get a RR-burst that was satisfactory. And I kept note of that.
Outside of that, practically nothing. In my opinion this is terrible. Look, this game is going to be 20 years old as of 3.25 years or so from now. The excuses for delayed rewards to focus the poor fool to chase after the carrot while beaten by the stick should he even lack a single motion in mid-step is just pathetic. The devs should consider all work and no rewards makes Jack not only a dull boy, but a vindictive one. Yeah sure, he quit the game, boo hoo - who cares? Another will replace him.

But will it happen, though? That is the question that has to be faced.

The OP is correct, the game should be rewarding you for your efforts and focus on playing said game, not punishing you. Further more, there is very little motivation to play the game outside of the sheer fun of it, which I think is a perfect reason to play said game, but not for anyone who wants to take a competitive edge against it. And if you are constantly losing for reasons beyond your control, you won't remain interested for very long as what's the point of receiving nothing for trying your best? An issue directly related to lack of rewards is lack of options to being able to set goals, due to limitations imposed by the community itself. Ranked rewards for example: If you are a normal human being with a day job and a life, forget ever seeing them. Unless you have a group of friends coordinating with another group of friends for pre-arranged meet-ups in ranked mode, it will never happen. You will never experience it in your life time. And you will never be able to claim anything that would interest you if you wanted it, the Triumphant Ring earned through ranked ONLY? Impossible with the community's revulsion towards Ranked.

The blobbing-effect, the zerging and other problems revolve around boredom from hardcore players with no new heights to reach towards, lacking the time to stay fully committed, and the fact rewards for doing so outside of events dry up. Even the nerfing of the RR-rates in Scenarios has inadvertently yet directly affected the blobbing-phenomena. People want to earn RR faster, they want better rewards so they can enjoy the BIS fruits of labour more quickly.

Give people better rewards, access to more content, and if that isn't impossible, more avenues of gameplay content to enjoy, things will dramatically improve over time. New blood included from both parts of the World.

[Fimbar]

xrealm can't be the problem and the solution at the same time.

[Zxul]

Because people like to play the "Entire" game. All of the content. Not just 50% of it. Seriously, how many gamers do you know that play only HALF of a game's content? I do not know any.

I know a lot. Guess its different if you are not a member of a xrealming guild

Again, good for you. Here's a cookie. You are still in the minority.

Delusions much?

[Voldt]

Because people like to play the "Entire" game. All of the content. Not just 50% of it. Seriously, how many gamers do you know that play only HALF of a game's content? I do not know any.

I know a lot. Guess its different if you are not a member of a xrealming guild

Again, good for you. Here's a cookie. You are still in the minority.

Imagine, for just a second, players having some sort of realm pride.

Unbelievable for some people on this server, I know. But it used to be the norm, be it DAoC or later WoW. If people found out you were playing both (2 or more of 3 in DAoC's case) sides, chances were you most likely weren't trustworthy to the ones dedicating their playtime to one faction. It's just human to trust "your own" more than double agents.

And yes, I (and many others) know A LOT of people who handle it the same way here, leading to a close-knit and trustworthy community to play with.

Then again, I guess the guys who like to join the winning side will always find a hollow shell of an argument to evade taking responsibility being a flag-in-the-wind, as we say here.

[Morradin]

I know a lot. Guess its different if you are not a member of a xrealming guild

Again, good for you. Here's a cookie. You are still in the minority.

Imagine, for just a second, players having some sort of realm pride.

Unbelievable for some people on this server, I know. But it used to be the norm, be it DAoC or later WoW. If people found out you were playing both (2 or more of 3 in DAoC's case) sides, chances were you most likely weren't trustworthy to the ones dedicating their playtime to one faction. It's just human to trust "your own" more than double agents.

And yes, I (and many others) know A LOT of people who handle it the same way here, leading to a close-knit and trustworthy community to play with.

Then again, I guess the guys who like to join the winning side will always find a hollow shell of an argument to evade taking responsibility being a flag-in-the-wind, as we say here.

Please do not try to force your trust issues on others. Not trust someone because they play more than one faction? That is a problem you need to (a) handle on your own time, and (b) not expand it to those of us who do not need to take "pride" in their gaming choices, in a game, to feel complete.

Realm Pride died in 2009. Long before Mythic even came up with dual realming, I and many others, had more than one account so we could play both realms. I played more of the game, met new people, and made new friends. I still have relations with people I met only in game, back in 2009-10. Some, people who like you, played only one realm. Some, people like me who played both.

I play the game (and many many others as well), to relax and have fun. Not take pride in something made up that does not exist.

[Voldt]

Again, good for you. Here's a cookie. You are still in the minority.

Imagine, for just a second, players having some sort of realm pride.

Unbelievable for some people on this server, I know. But it used to be the norm, be it DAoC or later WoW. If people found out you were playing both (2 or more of 3 in DAoC's case) sides, chances were you most likely weren't trustworthy to the ones dedicating their playtime to one faction. It's just human to trust "your own" more than double agents.

And yes, I (and many others) know A LOT of people who handle it the same way here, leading to a close-knit and trustworthy community to play with.

Then again, I guess the guys who like to join the winning side will always find a hollow shell of an argument to evade taking responsibility being a flag-in-the-wind, as we say here.

Please do not try to force your trust issues on others. Not trust someone because they play more than one faction? That is a problem you need to (a) handle on your own time, and (b) not expand it to those of us who do not need to take "pride" in their gaming choices, in a game, to feel complete.

Realm Pride died in 2009. Long before Mythic even came up with dual realming, I and many others, had more than one account so we could play both realms. I played more of the game, met new people, and made new friends. I still have relations with people I met only in game, back in 2009-10. Some, people who like you, played only one realm. Some, people like me who played both.

I play the game (and many many others as well), to relax and have fun. Not take pride in something made up that does not exist.

If I was you, I'd consider refraining from insulting assumptions like this in the future.

You take one word and manipulate the meaning of my whole post. Debate grade: F.

If you have something meaningful to say, go ahead.

We both know how it was and your mental gymnastics won't help you justifying your "path of least resistance"-gameplay, switching to the winning side.