SW - Powerful Draw is too much

[Sever1n]

SW situation is overall bad. Skirm had only buff to penetration from new ring bonus. Arp tactic was always there and i dont believe dif between old and new is that big. Last patch killed all goodies that sw had, festering, stun, even pin can be parried now. In terms of survivability when chopa ungabunga blob sit on you only dif between you and sork is melle stance and pin. Tnx to no antisnare, pulls, covenat, chch u still will feel same lvl of pain if chopabloba want to kill you as sork. Barage rotation was nerfed due to WW now 30sec. If some people die to bha+spiral spam i dunno whats wrong with you. Skirmish can do similiar numbers of fluff mass dmg but still i believe bomb bw do or engi (hello Raistleen magus with 12kk in city) will do far more. And in st dmg in skirmish nearly not existant, compared to other classes. SW IN DIRE NEED OF GOOD REWORK FOR ALL ITS SPECS. Skirmish sw < slay, lion, asw< hat or we, scout < sork bw (didnt tested numbers of burst but its was significantly worse in critbuild, now way is weaponskill). But here we are again SW are OP for some reason, skirmish even didnt changed that big, and sw still dont have spot in any meta plays. In curent state any spec of sw is just weird clunky mimic of other clases, only uniq stuff it have is pew pew spirals on the move and armor stack/pin shenanigans. Its even dont have nomal morale drops for 6vs6 or wb plays, when mormal classes have stuff like 1200 insta aoe, or st like dominance or cannon smash. On top of that skirm SW insanely ap starved, hold the line still exist, toughness counters dots and low dmg crap like spirals very hard, your hp pool if you go full glass 7k+, tanks hate you cos they cant properly guard your 65ft a do their job. Only place where SW shined, was scout festerstun noobhunting from backlinesand now it killed. I lvled my lion after sw and only impression was how its more simplier, metaloved, and better than sw overall, with totaly logical working specs. Im really want to rdps classes to be back in groupplay but its still ungabunga melle blob as it was for years and skirm sw not even near to be core of it. While squigs perfectly fine tnx to melle mimics of lions.

In overall few people asked for rework of but everytime it happens theres always "experts" spawn here to flood with zerofact nonsense and selfPR, and destro spamers that have only i algoritm " orderclass OP, nerf it". Hope devs FINALLY look deep at SW and make them on same lvl with other with some uniqness like squigs.

[Panzer80]

Oh no. Please don't suggest exact mirror changes.

[ravezaar]

Des cry about SL, BW, WL now SW is there anything Des dont think is to much dps ? Could it be you are just not very good players and maybe have to adapt and do better instead of hitting the cry section on Forums everytime ?

[Emissary]

Keep it civil team, thank you.

Keep to the subject without attacks please.

I appreciate the passion.

[Lion1986]

Sw is in a very bad spot. He lost a lot from last patch changes.

[anarchypark]

1. "Don't just compare burst and periodic damage numbers."
I mentioned 'burst' part first, but it seems everyone is fixated on it just because it's not visible in the screenshot.
What's alarming is that the damage output is this high even without burst.
All the damage in SW is amplified by HD. How much do you value HD?
Against an enemy with 3k HP remaining, quickly dealing 3.1k damage with HD can be more effective than taking the time to prepare for a burst 8k hit.
Sure, if the enemy heals to 6k HP, an 8k hit can still finish them off, but there's always a risk of being countered by cleanse or disrupt.
Didn’t I mention that Skirmish is less affected by cleanse and dodge? It feels like I'm repeating myself.

2. Efforts
Consider the efforts of a Sorc: building up mechanics, preparing the attack, hoping it bypasses disrupt, hoping it isn’t cleansed, and praying for a free cast.
Versus the efforts of an SW: 1-2-3, 3-2-3, 3-1-3, or simply spamming 1-2-3-1-2-3 while maneuvering.

3. It's Sorc ST build vs. SW ST build from Skirmish, which was designed for AoE.
How many warbands take AoE SW? Is it comparable to WL/Slayer/BW AoE?
Again, we need to first address whether all AoE DPS should be top-tier.
If you insist on that direction, let's see if SW AoE is effective.
If it isn’t working, it needs fixing.

Having multiple builds is good, but allowing the best DoT skill to spam with armor penetration isn’t.
The same goes for WL whirl’s armor penetration, but I digress.
That AoE has completely ruined the balance, and it's incredibly frustrating that the real problem still isn't being understood.
yet another story..

4. How confident are you about your survivability? You can't DPS while dead.
Everyone talks about the dangers of melee blobs, but suggesting using Skirmish in those AoE-heavy situation discourages its use.
The reliance on WW is too high. Instead, give more survivability through a range buff and make moral drain easier to use. I’ve explained all this before.

5. Don’t take the defensive Assault issue too seriously.
Considering every Assault SW is geared for MDPS, this will become a bigger issue than necessary.
If there were opportunities for gear exchange, perhaps... But I’ll stop here.

6. Since balance is interconnected, I can't ignore the run speed tactic.
They’ve reverted the goblin run speed tactic to not be disrupted by casting.
All run speeds should be canceled by casting, including SW’s.
We’ve already seen the consequences of not doing this. unkillable gobo.

Buffing all DPS damage leads to tank avoidance buffs, and when that’s not enough, healer buffs.
If everything is buffed to the top, what will new players face?
Don’t forget the power gap that existed when AoR declined.

[anarchypark]

Sw is in a very bad spot. He lost a lot from last patch changes.

Does anyone remember the outcry when SW lost the range buff tactic? Now, I'm suggesting we bring it back.
But they don't want it anymore because they have a better one.
And yet, it's in a bad spot.

A lot has changed since then, so I know it's not the same, but still...
guys your precious range buff, no?

[Everdin]

The Healdebuff can also be cleansed, and must be reapplied, that can cost two GCD cause BHA needs to be reapplied too, you always need a ailment first, so to get to the point of doing damage there are two abilites in the risk of beeing dodged. You constantly need to use your healdebuff interrupting you capabilites of doing damage.

Regarding your 3k hp example.

You reach 4k damage easy within a two second timestamp with using arctiv blast, GB and ID and a first tick of hand of ruin (followed by 3 more ~1k hits from hor), your burst is done before the sw even has started to make damage, this is not even close to the max damage you can throw out with the complete rotation and there is no cleanse possible here.

With healdebuff the SW still needs to get lucky for a 4k 3sec burst and even then, if the healer can only bring 50% you will constantly working against these 50%, agains cleanse, against absorbs someone brings, about a guard that get swapt to your target.

Burst isn't everything, you need a HD on a good healed target, you need to pick a good target, but burst is essential, overall damage you do in a 20sec timespan is useless.

[Blorke]

Des cry about SL, BW, WL now SW is there anything Des dont think is to much dps ? Could it be you are just not very good players and maybe have to adapt and do better instead of hitting the cry section on Forums everytime ?

Yes, it's like the crying is mirrored to the same degree in both factions. Perfect balance, case closed. :'D

[Caduceus]

I haven't really played my SW with the recent changes, though my impression used to be that SW is struggling and has been for a while.

The data posted so far doesn't really seem to show a significant imbalance either.

So where exactly is SW overperforming according to the OP?

On paper it may appear that SW gets a good deal, but in my experience those advantages translate fairly poorly into actual fragging.

I see Heal Debuff mentioned a lot, but it should be noted that ST burst is mainly relevant in the context of 6-mans, in which a HD is pretty much a must-have in every group anyway. So while there are classes who may be lacking a HD on paper, in context they will virtually always have a teammate to provide it.

Also, wasn't Festering Arrow spec the go-to for ST burst? My knowledge might be a bit outdated on that.