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Shaman/AM nerf?

Black Orc, Squig Herder, Choppa, Shaman
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Ysaran
Posts: 1239

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#91 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:05 pm

I think that nerfing other healers to make shaman/am more appealing is not the right way. if zeal/dok have a focus on party buff, maybe shaman should have a focus on debuffs? atm shaman debuffs are useless. almost every dps can debuff toughness, so toughness debuff is pretty useless. the str/bs/int debuff is actually pretty good. puddle is also pretty good. but that's it for shaman. am is actually in a better position due to aoe ap drain, ini debuff on puddle and blinding light m2.

shaman also lack support. ere we go is subpar compared to CoC. moral pump is subpar to am moral pump. shaman should have a reliable way to pump ap in the same way as am pump morale on crit. that would greatly increase shaman appeal. or maybe a tactic to apply absorb on crit like zeal.
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Kloaner
Posts: 121

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#92 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:11 pm

Nameless wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:17 pm Their utilities and esp debuffs are pretty solid.
and yes he talks about shamans
AM / RP / Shaman / Zealot / WP / DoK

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Nameless
Posts: 1147

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#93 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:17 pm

Pre proc meta zealot + shaman was best heal duo, after proc meta incoming nerf they again will be.
Again I dont say zealots/rp are not as good as they are just shamans/ams are not weaker.
You bring classes based on unique stuff they bring or the synergy they build with rest.

So shaman bring best aoe heal ingame with or without chop fasta, they bring puddle slow controlling enemy move, decent ap leech, and best st heal focus amont destro healers. Beside that shamans are much more self reliant and require less babysitting esp when zealot tools are on cd.
Among all archetypes healers are best balanced within them. I would even say wp/doc could need some minor fixes but not ot healing but on utility tools they got (but after proc meta nerf)
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bw10
Posts: 263

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#94 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:40 pm

Ysaran wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:05 pm I think that nerfing other healers to make shaman/am more appealing is not the right way. if zeal/dok have a focus on party buff, maybe shaman should have a focus on debuffs? atm shaman debuffs are useless. almost every dps can debuff toughness, so toughness debuff is pretty useless. the str/bs/int debuff is actually pretty good. puddle is also pretty good. but that's it for shaman. am is actually in a better position due to aoe ap drain, ini debuff on puddle and blinding light m2.

shaman also lack support. ere we go is subpar compared to CoC. moral pump is subpar to am moral pump. shaman should have a reliable way to pump ap in the same way as am pump morale on crit. that would greatly increase shaman appeal. or maybe a tactic to apply absorb on crit like zeal.
A skill with rain of fire like targeting that would heal allies and debuff enemies in the area would be cool. Channeled or fire and forget

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Ysaran
Posts: 1239

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#95 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:13 pm

bw10 wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:40 pm
Ysaran wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:05 pm I think that nerfing other healers to make shaman/am more appealing is not the right way. if zeal/dok have a focus on party buff, maybe shaman should have a focus on debuffs? atm shaman debuffs are useless. almost every dps can debuff toughness, so toughness debuff is pretty useless. the str/bs/int debuff is actually pretty good. puddle is also pretty good. but that's it for shaman. am is actually in a better position due to aoe ap drain, ini debuff on puddle and blinding light m2.

shaman also lack support. ere we go is subpar compared to CoC. moral pump is subpar to am moral pump. shaman should have a reliable way to pump ap in the same way as am pump morale on crit. that would greatly increase shaman appeal. or maybe a tactic to apply absorb on crit like zeal.
A skill with rain of fire like targeting that would heal allies and debuff enemies in the area would be cool. Channeled or fire and forget
adding new skills would be problematic. Shaman is already starved for GCD. Adding a damage component (thus giving a yellow waagh stack) to You'z Squishy would be simplier, though that could mess up with the dps spec in some way or another. I'm not an expert of dps shaman so i cant really say
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Bozzax
Posts: 2481

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#96 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:31 pm

Can’t wait for another ranked season where am/shman will be trash tier for sure

I doubt we will see shamans or ams as wb backbone healers in the near future. Nor ams or shamans have the durability to provide top heals unless you are stomping and hardly need heals.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

salazarn
Posts: 26

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#97 » Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:47 pm

For dps specs?
100% agree of a nerf for probs both but more towards shaman.

The fact they get a free 240 toughness and an extra hot / passive 25% movespeed all day long just makes them next level tanky and they can stack toughness really well.

Super obnoxious to play against

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Ysaran
Posts: 1239

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#98 » Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:30 pm

salazarn wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:47 pm For dps specs?
100% agree of a nerf for probs both but more towards shaman.

The fact they get a free 240 toughness and an extra hot / passive 25% movespeed all day long just makes them next level tanky and they can stack toughness really well.

Super obnoxious to play against
All healers have 2 HoTs, except AM. In turn, AM have 4 DoTs, while shaman has only 3. Zeal/AM can stack absorb, RP/DoK/WP can stack armor. Every healer can be tanky.

The speed tactic has already been nerfed, you can't cast on the move anymore and you can't cast from your ass anymore. Not sure what you want more.
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salazarn
Posts: 26

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#99 » Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:12 pm

Ysaran wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:30 pm
salazarn wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:47 pm For dps specs?
100% agree of a nerf for probs both but more towards shaman.

The fact they get a free 240 toughness and an extra hot / passive 25% movespeed all day long just makes them next level tanky and they can stack toughness really well.

Super obnoxious to play against
All healers have 2 HoTs, except AM. In turn, AM have 4 DoTs, while shaman has only 3. Zeal/AM can stack absorb, RP/DoK/WP can stack armor. Every healer can be tanky.

The speed tactic has already been nerfed, you can't cast on the move anymore and you can't cast from your ass anymore. Not sure what you want more.
Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.

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Aluviya
Posts: 134

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#100 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:59 am

I would like to share my insights as a long-time player of this class and particularly as someone who plays all other healers in competitive content such as group ranked. Here is my feedback on this topic (I know it’s a wall of text, but it’s not avoidable in this case):

Preface:
The dialogue surrounding healer classes often gravitates towards a superficial comparison of their healing output, particularly the ability to heal multiple targets. This approach overlooks the strategic utility these classes offer, leading to a misconception about their viability in certain contexts. Historically, DoK and WP were often seen on par with other healers due to their city healing output statistics while they still are especially in their conventional builds (Book-WP/Chalice Dok) another odd balanced class one could write about. Same applies here. One usually oversees the healing Shaman and AM as their DPS counterparts used to dominate 1 vs 1 battles in NA primetime.

Why AM and Shaman Struggle to Compete with Other Healers:

External Class Pressures:
The ability to Shatter Enchantments in small-scale and competitive play severely impacts both Shaman and AM, hindering their effectiveness heavily. The presence of at least 3-4 classes in a normal group ranked game capable of removing enchantments in a single global cooldown exacerbates this, significantly affecting their ability to maintain crucial HoTs amidst lengthy cast times.

Class Synergy and Meta-game Dynamics:

The interaction between AM+RP and RP+WP pairings (or their Destruction analogs) reveals clear differences. Dual Blessing setups are more resistant to Bless shattering, in contrast to AM or Shaman, which can protect DPS class enchantments. Moreover, the meta's shift towards proc-meta, particularly for Destruction with increased covenant proc rates (check pictures included), puts AM into a heavy disadvantage due to its lack of proc-based contributions. Shaman's ability for morale boosting requires careful coordination, risking the free immunity giving due to its appliance after a CC hits. AM's morale boost, though potent, may not align well with the current Order meta, especially in compositions like Slayer/WH - while there are yet very powerful offensive morales on destru side which can be a deciding factor if available early such as Zealot Talon M1, Choppa M4.

Small Scale PvP and the Evolution of Healing Roles:
In the current Small Scale PvP landscape, healing has become somewhat secondary to damage output and covenant/prayer contributions, particularly for SnB-WP and SnB-DoK classes. Their positioning and resilience to CC make traditional kill strategies less effective, demanding more nuanced tactical plays. Conversely, Shaman and AM lack significant damage output, making hybrid builds risky and less viable.

Class-specific Challenges:

AM and Shaman Mechanics: Both classes suffer from mechanics that either don't align with practical gameplay or are hindered by their design. For instance, AM's Cleanse mechanic negatively impacts its balancing, and Shaman's dual HoTs make efficient use of class mechanics challenging.

Reactive vs. Preventive Healing: The dichotomy between AM as a reactive healer and Shaman as a preventive one highlights their unique approaches but also their limitations, especially in the context of Small Scale PvP. AM's absence of a second HoT, a disadvantage in terms of resilience to Shattering, distinguishes it significantly in small-scale PvP contexts. Shamans, with their dual HoTs, adopt a more preventative healing approach, or when mimicking AM tactics, do so less effectively due to the absence of Funnel Essence. Conversely, AM operates as a reactive healer, primarily leveraging DPS spells to capitalize on its class mechanics for burst scenarios, enhancing HoTs and achieving quicker cast times for healing. This reliance on Funnel Essence elevates AM's performance, positioning it as a premier single-target burst healer in the game.

Animation and Cast Times: Odd cast times tied to class mechanics frequently disrupt gameplay, causing delays in action execution.

AP Drain and CC Inefficiencies: The nerfing of AP drain, coupled with inadequate CC capabilities due to low intelligence stats, further diminishes the strategic value of AM and Shaman in PvP settings.

I could name far more but the conclusion is AM and Shaman possess unique strengths but the current competitive environment and class mechanics often leave them overshadowed by other healers. Addressing these issues requires a nuanced understanding of each class's role and the broader meta-game dynamics.
Some recent 6 vs 6 statistics regarding the proc meta.
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