IB mechanical grudge

[hogun]

for my part, I've always loved the IB, because in my opinion it's the best bodyguard you can have (before the nerf) and solo it's also a class that can get out of any situation.
each tank must have its own signature, so I didn't quite understand the devs' objective in wanting to put all tanks on the same level.
The BG/IB mechanic is the hardest of all tanks, and if we levelled all tanks, there would always be fewer IB/BGs... whereas if they had their own specialties, players would go for the ones that suit them best.
giving chop fasta to the BG is an aberration because his specialty is debuffing not buffing, and the choppa up which caused this problem could very well have been dealt with in another way, especially as the choppa perhaps didn't need such a big up.
like the slayer nerf, perhaps a simple reduction in the duration of Rampage would have sufficed as a first attempt, rather than trying to change the skill at all costs.
I'm not against balancing, but in my opinion, balancing is an adjustment, not an overhaul. let's ask ourselves the question "why have players been playing this game for so many years? to see it change completely? i don't think so.

to finish , plz Dev repare the IB , and if you don't know the classes, before changing them, ask the questions. I'm sure the community will be happy to help you, as we all respect the work you do.

[Farrul]

2. 3pts when above hight 60+ or something for BG now, can't remember for sure. Yes, enraged beating does help - if your crit chance is high enough. Its not? Welcome to the club. The reason for BG to have it better is the fact that your toolkit is a bit more spammy than IB's

There is no balance reason for bg to a have free tactic advantage compared to IB.

Enraged beating yes. Rising Anger for free no.

I consider 2h IB small scale more or less dead after these patrches, resource starved and must use valuable tactics slot(s) to enable the class mechanics , not functional without.

GnM is gone, Heavy blow is indeed nerfed by at least 40%. Forced to spec into the channel attack to make any real damage but it just keeps repeatedly cancel itself for no apparent reason.

[Farrul]

Ironic that IB has weaker grudge generation than the BG equivalent mechanic given thematically, dwarfs are all about grudges in Warhammer lore.

There's no escaping that IB is weaker than BG, improving grudge generation may help bridge the gap somewhat, but the biggest difference for me in small scale is the fact IBs face shamans and BGs face AMs. A BG can get on top of an AM, an IB even with the root M1 will get kited to oblivion by a shaman and that can't really be fixed.

BG / kotbs were the last tanks to be added. They updated the BG resource system but forgot about the archaic IB system. Apparently this has persisted into RoR and yes it is a balance injustice. Everyone aware of the balance between these two knows it but seems some like to pretend there isn't one ( unfortunately ) for whatever reasons.

2h BG is like playing the dream version of the 2h IB, never worry about resources again and you have all 4 tactics slots available. BG is a superior 2h tank without any doubts as they get several advantages and more importantly way higher survivability.

The tactic slot IB must invest into grudge regenerating(BG get for free) the BG can use to easily gain above softcap toughness or immunity to detaunts.

2H IB just do a little more burst if ( and a big if it is ) they can get resources high enough but that only matters in small scale anyway.

P.S. vs shamans you have to tank their damage ( doable with an elemental potion) and ambush them around LoS. The real issue is Regen WE , not possible to get through their self-sustain but they sure will slice through your defences like a hot knife through butter.

[Avernus]

2. 3pts when above hight 60+ or something for BG now, can't remember for sure. Yes, enraged beating does help - if your crit chance is high enough. Its not? Welcome to the club. The reason for BG to have it better is the fact that your toolkit is a bit more spammy than IB's

There is no balance reason for bg to a have free tactic advantage compared to IB.

Enraged beating yes. Rising Anger for free no.

Yep, its not like BG's skills (damage) are not scalining from your hate. Oh, wait - they don't. That was the idea - BG constantly spends its hate while IB is more focused on saving it. But was that concept successful? I can't say that, not for 100%, thats for sure.

Simple example - each time you spend your hate as BG - you are actually DEBUFFING your own defence. Funny, right?

[nat3s]

Yeah I hear you. Preaching to the converted.

Disagree with the shaman assessment, perhaps against a glass cannon shaman you'd be right (and quite a few shamans spec the middle tree despite the right tree buffing the hard hitting dots and the middle tree buffing the weakest dot), but the standard dual hot solo setup IB dies easily:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... mm=&mt=&t=

[hogun]

2. 3pts when above hight 60+ or something for BG now, can't remember for sure. Yes, enraged beating does help - if your crit chance is high enough. Its not? Welcome to the club. The reason for BG to have it better is the fact that your toolkit is a bit more spammy than IB's

There is no balance reason for bg to a have free tactic advantage compared to IB.

Enraged beating yes. Rising Anger for free no.

Yep, its not like BG's skills (damage) are not scalining from your hate. Oh, wait - they don't. That was the idea - BG constantly spends its hate while IB is more focused on saving it. But was that concept successful? I can't say that, not for 100%, thats for sure.

Simple example - each time you spend your hate as BG - you are actually DEBUFFING your own defence. Funny, right?

My English is not very good so if you make a joke know that I didn't understand it.
otherwise I don't understand the objective of your remark.
Personally I think that the generation of Grudges and hate should go back to how it was before the patch.
and I don't have a problem that the Bg is different from the IB, on the contrary it makes the game more interesting.
otherwise, yes, the BG does not have a dmg skill that scales on hate, which makes it more dangerous since it is not dependent on hate to make its maximum dmg. with the exception of their armor debuff of course.
But all this does not remove the fact that the BG is superior to the IB. if you wish we can debate all the skills, but before getting there, it will be difficult to convince me that nerver be detaunt (50% less dmg) is not stronger than every HB full Grudges. or that a Bubble which absorbs all rather than just the magic is not better, or that an attack which heals you for the amount of dmg in base skill, it is not stronger than a finisher attack which heals that if we kill for 7pts of specialization. or that a skill 5 pts which increases blocking by 50% is no stronger than a skill with 13 pts which returns 4 hits. THE **** PUNT ...we can continue if you want but know that is not the objective of this post. finaly if you want we can agree that the IB is a better bodyguard than the BG when he can hold grudges. but nothing more.

[Kenyo]

Posted for a Guild Member ( Not my words )

Fact : IB has better survivability then the BG.
Fact BG does more Damage then the IB

So from reading this topic, you want the IB to have the same level of Grudges as the BG has with Hate, don't you see a balance issue with that?

IB has a Armor Tactic for 660 which the BG does not have, however the IB can take the Rising Anger Tactic. Which is a big boost to the IB's Grudges, plus you have a core ability Guarded Attack, with No cool down for 990 armor for 20 seconds. The BG has to spend 13 points in the Path of Loathing to get that , however the BG's is only 10 seconds with a 20 second cool down.

I can go on and on, about how much better the IB is over the BG with survivability, That is way the BG builds Hate faster then the IB does with Grudges. To help the BG have some more survivability

The fact is the hate rate for the BG has had a Nerf with the 1st update patch and it is awful and should be set back how it was.

I be very happy for your Grudges to work the same as the BG Hate does

However, the IB survivability would have to take a big Nerf to bring it in line with the BG, or the BG would need to have a big buff to big it in line with the IB.

As a BG I would be very happy if the dev team would swap IB and BG around so that my BG had the survivability of the IB

[Detangler]

Posted for a Guild Member ( Not my words )

Fact : IB has better survivability then the BG.
Fact BG does more Damage then the IB

So from reading this topic, you want the IB to have the same level of Grudges as the BG has with Hate, don't you see a balance issue with that?

IB has a Armor Tactic for 660 which the BG does not have, however the IB can take the Rising Anger Tactic. Which is a big boost to the IB's Grudges, plus you have a core ability Guarded Attack, with No cool down for 990 armor for 20 seconds. The BG has to spend 13 points in the Path of Loathing to get that , however the BG's is only 10 seconds with a 20 second cool down.

I can go on and on, about how much better the IB is over the BG with survivability, That is way the BG builds Hate faster then the IB does with Grudges. To help the BG have some more survivability

The fact is the hate rate for the BG has had a Nerf with the 1st update patch and it is awful and should be set back how it was.

I be very happy for your Grudges to work the same as the BG Hate does

However, the IB survivability would have to take a big Nerf to bring it in line with the BG, or the BG would need to have a big buff to big it in line with the IB.

As a BG I would be very happy if the dev team would swap IB and BG around so that my BG had the survivability of the IB

That's some serious cherry picking of abilities. Congrats on your ability to completely disregard stuff BG gets for free that IB doesn't have access to.

[Farrul]

2. 3pts when above hight 60+ or something for BG now, can't remember for sure. Yes, enraged beating does help - if your crit chance is high enough. Its not? Welcome to the club. The reason for BG to have it better is the fact that your toolkit is a bit more spammy than IB's

There is no balance reason for bg to a have free tactic advantage compared to IB.

Enraged beating yes. Rising Anger for free no.

Yep, its not like BG's skills (damage) are not scalining from your hate. Oh, wait - they don't. That was the idea - BG constantly spends its hate while IB is more focused on saving it. But was that concept successful? I can't say that, not for 100%, thats for sure.

Simple example - each time you spend your hate as BG - you are actually DEBUFFING your own defence. Funny, right?

BG scales debuffs with hate which directly improves their damage just the way IB does ( like the Armor debuff is a direct mirror skill and scales with 0-100 hate just like 0-100 grudge IB version).

Only because BG do not have the nerfed Heavy blow equivalent or a few additional dps skills scaling with hate does not mean the resource is less impactful, BG has a lot of powerful offensive utility/even defensive utility tied to hate that IB do not have. This is really beside the point and apples vs oranges.

As for their defences BG 2h is A LOT more survivable than 2H IB. At the rate they gain hate it is not a problem to maintain hate scaling defences at constant near peak level and one of the most important defensive skills i believe is not even affected by hate droping after application ( terrifying foe ) .

You really hit the nail in the head. The concept is not successful since the implementation is terrible for the Ironbreaker. It is great for the BG.

[Farrul]

Posted for a Guild Member ( Not my words )

Fact : IB has better survivability then the BG.
Fact BG does more Damage then the IB

So from reading this topic, you want the IB to have the same level of Grudges as the BG has with Hate, don't you see a balance issue with that?

IB has a Armor Tactic for 660 which the BG does not have, however the IB can take the Rising Anger Tactic. Which is a big boost to the IB's Grudges, plus you have a core ability Guarded Attack, with No cool down for 990 armor for 20 seconds. The BG has to spend 13 points in the Path of Loathing to get that , however the BG's is only 10 seconds with a 20 second cool down.

I can go on and on, about how much better the IB is over the BG with survivability, That is way the BG builds Hate faster then the IB does with Grudges. To help the BG have some more survivability

The fact is the hate rate for the BG has had a Nerf with the 1st update patch and it is awful and should be set back how it was.

I be very happy for your Grudges to work the same as the BG Hate does

However, the IB survivability would have to take a big Nerf to bring it in line with the BG, or the BG would need to have a big buff to big it in line with the IB.

As a BG I would be very happy if the dev team would swap IB and BG around so that my BG had the survivability of the IB

I do absolutely not mean to be rude, but your guildmate need to actually play both classes and gain practical knowledge before drawing conclusions. This couldn't be more wrong.

Let me go through a few of the points made:

First of all if we're talking damage comparison then 2H is implied and 2H IB does under no circumstances have more survivability than 2H BG, in fact the opposite is very much true. 2H BG has way more toughness, more parry , lifesteal skill, absorb all skill etc, and may even opt for some strong anti magic avoidance/mitigation.

IB 2H is the squishy tank here.

660 armor tactic? Lol seriously even if we had a tactic slot to spare( which we don't) the gain is small compared to the far more powerful defensive BG stuff. Guarded attack? It is nice to have but does not stack with an Armor pot. Compare that to BO You Wot now that is some serious armor gains.

If you need real proof of this:

How many 2H IB do you see run in the frontline without SnB tanks leading the charge? Few and they will die fast.

How many 2H BG do you see doing the same? Many because they can take a lot more punishment if specced for it and live to tell the tale.

2H IB is just a small scale tank viable whereas 2H BG is both small and large scale tank viable. They do a bit more burst when fully grudgy vs singletarget but that's about it.

Are you refering to SnB ? Then SnB IB is tanky , so is SnB BG. Not sure who is more tanky except that i know for certain a damage comparison between the two is near irelevant, damage is not the role of a SnB tank.

I'm sorry but these ''facts'' are not facts at all.