[BW] The fireclown

[Zxul]

I think you are misunderstaning what Aluviya is trying to say. From what I understand (and I agree), this is harder to play a BW in a RDPS composition on Order side because of the various points he made like pulls (Maraudeur & Choppa), tanks with tools to catch magical RDPS like Endless Persuit (BG), Elite Training (BG) or Siphoned Energy (Chosen), the 40ft in front AoE snare (BG), M1 Talon that helps RDPS kill a tank very fast, Covenent of Celerity, etc ...

Sure, Order has different tools (Pounce on WL, Festering Arrow with Vengeful, KD on Ignite for BW...) but it doesn't change the fact that for a BW, this is harder to shine in a RDPS composition compared to a Sorcerer.

PS : BG has also the Wounds debuff thanks to the tactic Hastened Doom.

Lets see. Pulls like I said- wl not just with pull and pounce, but with combination of high frontload burst, pull, and pounce. Siphoned Energy (Chosen)- same tactic on IB- Avalanche. The 40ft in front AoE snare (BG)- same 40 ft in front AoE snare on IB. The tools which order doesn't gets- order gets tools which destro doesn't gets. Like m1 65 ft pounce+ aoe snare on SM, m1 30 ft root on IB, aoe snare ability on kotb, etc.

And like I mentioned, while BG has the wounds debuff, wp has party wounds buff which destro doesn't has.

Same to you as to Aluviya- learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.

Have you ever seen a WL pushing into a 3 RDPS group poucing out of guard range - you better not (and you won't as the WL will explode the moment he pounces up to a 3 RDPs comp). I don't know why you claim that we have no clue while stating your opinion (which is completely fine to do so). But this post is about adressing the issue of BW. You can't play the same IB 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have (end of the discussion here from my side). I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match

Not if for example a guarding sm pounces with the wl, which destro comp can't do. Or if a rp silences one of rdps and stuggers the other. Or other options to deal with rdps.

I claim that you have no clue, because both of you demonstrated not knowing which abilities the classes actually have- the definition of having no clue.

"You can't play the same IB 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have"- yep, classes are different. For example, the BG 3 sorc setup indeed won't have a ranged KD, which the IB 3 BWs setup will have x3.

"I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match "- will rather just gank you on one of my toons. Which I likely already did. Since lets face it, most of 6v6 crowd have no clue what to do when they don't have guard+heal on demand.

[Aluviya]

Lets see. Pulls like I said- wl not just with pull and pounce, but with combination of high frontload burst, pull, and pounce. Siphoned Energy (Chosen)- same tactic on IB- Avalanche. The 40ft in front AoE snare (BG)- same 40 ft in front AoE snare on IB. The tools which order doesn't gets- order gets tools which destro doesn't gets. Like m1 65 ft pounce+ aoe snare on SM, m1 30 ft root on IB, aoe snare ability on kotb, etc.

And like I mentioned, while BG has the wounds debuff, wp has party wounds buff which destro doesn't has.

Same to you as to Aluviya- learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.

Have you ever seen a WL pushing into a 3 RDPS group poucing out of guard range - you better not (and you won't as the WL will explode the moment he pounces up to a 3 RDPs comp). I don't know why you claim that we have no clue while stating your opinion (which is completely fine to do so). But this post is about adressing the issue of BW. You can't play the same IB 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have (end of the discussion here from my side). I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match

Not if for example a guarding sm pounces with the wl, which destro comp can't do. Or if a rp silences one of rdps and stuggers the other. Or other options to deal with rdps.

I claim that you have no clue, because both of you demonstrated not knowing which abilities the classes actually have- the definition of having no clue.

"You can't play the same IB 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have"- yep, classes are different. For example, the BG 3 sorc setup indeed won't have a ranged KD, which the IB 3 BWs setup will have x3.

"I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match "- will rather just gank you on one of my toons. Which I likely already did. Since lets face it, most of 6v6 crowd have no clue what to do when they don't have guard+heal on demand.

I never went into any details about abilities, just stated generally what classes have and what is conceptually countering a BW to have an overall compareable gameplay as an order RDPs

[Zxul]

Have you ever seen a WL pushing into a 3 RDPS group poucing out of guard range - you better not (and you won't as the WL will explode the moment he pounces up to a 3 RDPs comp). I don't know why you claim that we have no clue while stating your opinion (which is completely fine to do so). But this post is about adressing the issue of BW. You can't play the same IB 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have (end of the discussion here from my side). I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match

Not if for example a guarding sm pounces with the wl, which destro comp can't do. Or if a rp silences one of rdps and stuggers the other. Or other options to deal with rdps.

I claim that you have no clue, because both of you demonstrated not knowing which abilities the classes actually have- the definition of having no clue.

"You can't play the same IB 3 RDPS 2 healer comp with having exactly the same utility as a BG 3 RDPS setup would have"- yep, classes are different. For example, the BG 3 sorc setup indeed won't have a ranged KD, which the IB 3 BWs setup will have x3.

"I am open to take this "personal" - "you have no clue" statement gladly to proving my point in a 6 vs 6 match "- will rather just gank you on one of my toons. Which I likely already did. Since lets face it, most of 6v6 crowd have no clue what to do when they don't have guard+heal on demand.

I never went into any details about abilities, just stated generally what classes have and what is conceptually countering a BW to have an overall compareable gameplay as an order RDPs

I specifically quoted what you said about which ability lol.

[Aluviya]

1. Squigherders : are undenieably the most mobile classe in the game overloaded with both escape and utility opposing a serious threat to the BW

As a ranged class with a nice list of instacast spells, really not sure how you are worrying about sh as a bw.

2. Shadowwarrior: Fills into the same role as a Squigherder in terms of proving healdebuff + damage for the ST rotation but always at the cost of having to give up on the safe distance and mobility while rotating.

However has better melee burst, etc.

3. Tzeentch's Talon: a huge resistance and armor debuff that synergises with all DPS classes on destru without a compareable counterpart on order (and no, the defensive WP M1 has not at all a similar effect) having a great effect if

One thing which destro has, which however order has plenty of other things to compensate for. Like, for example, wh's armor debuff which WE don't get.

4. Better gap closers vs Range on destruction:
a) Marauder : Pull is way harder to counter than the WL pull as Pet can be CC'ed, killed or generally missleaded due to poor pathfinding

However unlike wl, mara doesn't has pounce.

b) Witch Elf: stealth pouncing opener, 30 ft channel ability with high damage

From having 80+ WE- in most situations that 30 ft range stealth pouncing opener is useless. Unlike, again, wh's armor debuff opener which WE doesn't gets.

And wh has the same 30 ft channel ability with high damage- Trial by Pain. So you really have no idea what are you talking about.

c) Disciple of Khaine: Covenant procs last 9 secs and have in the big picture a way way higher chance to snare order RDPs as for instance as a squigheder does not require to stand still to apply autoattacks and both sorc and magus have several damaging direct abilities while a Warriorpriest is capped at 65 ft range to apply the corresponding skill to snare for 2 secs.

And order has other abilities which destro doesn't has. Like for example, chosen not having kotb's aoe snare, or destro not having a class with wl's combination of pounce and burst (msh burst isn't anywhere near).

5. Better solo tank for range assist groups on destruction BG has wounds debuff and high parry and a long punt while the corresponding debuff is given to KOTBS with low parry

That's a mirror of chosen's wounds debuff, not bg's. And order has team wounds buff on wp- while destro doesn't has one. Or, for that matter, kotb has +15% team healing tactic, which chosen doesn't gets.

Ok let me then clarify again here, as you seem to be stereotypical victim of an order RDPS.
1. If you don't see any issue between SH and BW you are simply delusional. A well played squig denies your mobility completely on a BW as they can cover their snare (and we are talking here about a 10 sec snare) everytime and deny your self cleanse along with it. While on the other hand a BW would have to very carefully plan ahead to be even able to rotate a squig as they can just pop m1 in any sweaty situation and disrupt all following spells or just pop their 30 % speed buff and simply outkite you.
2. It's not about melee SW (never was)
3. Armor debuff is completly useless to all RDPS on order but Engineer as SW is doing mostly corporeal and spirit damage with the classic fester build- and btw. I don't know why you'd mention armor debuff for the WE with the current full armor penetration meta ongoing for WE's.
4. If you can't make use of your pounce this has barely anything to do with BW.
5. Trial by pain is way weaker than Ruthless Assault - and yet again the point here was about having a gapcloser + a very strong 30 ft. channel
6. BG has an AoE snare and wounds debuff (with tactic from left tree) (don't get your point here)
7. Wounds Buff of a WP is completely useless as it can be removed easily (leaving you with -60+ wounds) and even having it won't save you from 3 rdps rotation, same applies for 15% more healing.

Anyway my point is here that any balance that is aimed here with the BW needs to consider all the external factors before upscaling all RDPS into a monster similar to SH.

[Zxul]

Ok let me then clarify again here, as you seem to be stereotypical victim of an order RDPS.

My most active toons are WE, dps zealot, and sorc. Which one of those do you think is a victim of an RDPS?....

1. If you don't see any issue between SH and BW you are simply delusional. A well played squig denies your mobility completely on a BW as they can cover their snare (and we are talking here about a 10 sec snare) everytime and deny your self cleanse along with it. While on the other hand a BW would have to very carefully plan ahead to be even able to rotate a squig as they can just pop m1 in any sweaty situation and disrupt all following spells or just pop their 30 % speed buff and simply outkite you.

You have 100 ft range on most abilities, you do a higher dmg than a sh, and you have 100 ft detaunt to cover their 7 sec m1. How do you die to a sh is beyond me, and that is speaking as someone who solo roams on sorc, which doesn't has a ranged KD, or a self cleanse.

3. Armor debuff is completly useless to all RDPS on order but Engineer as SW is doing mostly corporeal and spirit damage with the classic fester build- and btw. I don't know why you'd mention armor debuff for the WE with the current full armor penetration meta ongoing for WE's.

Armor debuff however isn't useless on WH, which is the class which has it unlike the WE. Also, it is aoe, so it helps classes like say slayer.

Also, and this is speaking as the one who originally invented the WE armor penetration spec, WE doesn't has a magical armor ignore button. What WE has is BE tactic which buffs armor pen by 50%, and ws self buff- which however by themselves ain't near enough to ignore armor. You need ws, and you need armor debuffs- the more the merrier. WH has an armor debuff as opener- only way for solo WE to get armor debuff is by using city dagger with proc- which means losing other things, like for example crit.

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4. If you can't make use of your pounce this has barely anything to do with BW.

Not even clear what are you talking about. About WE 30 ft pounce, which means losing other opener with an actual dmg (did I mentioned that you can only use it from stealth?), for an extra benefit of actually getting to the target slower than just running the 30 ft to it?

5. Trial by pain is way weaker than Ruthless Assault - and yet again the point here was about having a gapcloser + a very strong 30 ft. channel

Trial by Pain and Ruthless Assault literally do the same dmg.....

And like I said, since you clearly have no idea which abilities classes actually have- its a 30 ft range gap closer, which can only be used from stealth (so like I mentioned you can just run the 30 ft to the target and use a different opener with an actual dmg). And for extra benefit, considering the pounce animation, lot of time it is actually faster to just run to the target.

6. BG has an AoE snare and wounds debuff (with tactic from left tree) (don't get your point here)

My point was that you spoke about order rdps having to deal with BG's aoe snare- while IB has literally the same aoe snare.

7. Wounds Buff of a WP is completely useless as it can be removed easily (leaving you with -60+ wounds) and even having it won't save you from 3 rdps rotation, same applies for 15% more healing.

And BG wounds debuff requires getting a crit past FS, as well as getting into melee range (or hitting with aoe ability- which have a pretty short range, 40 ft top, a long CD, or cost a class resource).

WP wounds debuff- how many classes do you think can remove blessings from range? Also, it is funny how destro has to deal with the same 3 rdps rotation- but without the wounds buff and 15% more healing- but you seem to be just fine with that.

Anyway my point is here that any balance that is aimed here with the BW needs to consider all the external factors before upscaling all RDPS into a monster similar to SH.

Show me on the doll where the rSH hurt you.

[CyunUnderis]

The 40ft in front AoE snare (BG)- same 40 ft in front AoE snare on IB. The tools which order doesn't gets- order gets tools which destro doesn't gets.
...

Same to you as to Aluviya- learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.

IB AoE snare is not working like the BG one :

IB : The ground around you cracks and shatters and snares all enemies within 30 feet, reducing their run speed by 40% for 10 seconds.

BG : A great wave spreads 40 feet in front of you, inflicting 322 damage and reducing movement by 40% for 10 seconds.

But hey, same to you - learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.

Also, if you have time and friends, try to build a RDPS premade Order side. You'll see the difference. Aluviya and I (from 2 differents guilds) did multiple 6-men RDPS, both side, and one is clearly easier.

[Belanoite]

BW will be reworked. Don't need to cry. Be happy it won't be nerfed.

[Aluviya]

Ok let me then clarify again here, as you seem to be stereotypical victim of an order RDPS.

My most active toons are WE, dps zealot, and sorc. Which one of those do you think is a victim of an RDPS?....

1. If you don't see any issue between SH and BW you are simply delusional. A well played squig denies your mobility completely on a BW as they can cover their snare (and we are talking here about a 10 sec snare) everytime and deny your self cleanse along with it. While on the other hand a BW would have to very carefully plan ahead to be even able to rotate a squig as they can just pop m1 in any sweaty situation and disrupt all following spells or just pop their 30 % speed buff and simply outkite you.

You have 100 ft range on most abilities, you do a higher dmg than a sh, and you have 100 ft detaunt to cover their 7 sec m1. How do you die to a sh is beyond me, and that is speaking as someone who solo roams on sorc, which doesn't has a ranged KD, or a self cleanse.

Honestly, won't respond to this anymore. I just don't get why people come here, accusing others of "not knowing xyz" rather then stating their opinion to the original post that was made here and boosting their post numbers overall (which usually have similar quality). This is why posting important suggestions on forums never end well. If you ever reach my level of gameplay we might then sit on a table again. Until then I am not interested in interactions that bring 0 input into the discussion of the BW's well being. Also if your most active toons are WE and DPS ZEALOT (kek) there is nothing left to discuss. TY.

[Zxul]

The 40ft in front AoE snare (BG)- same 40 ft in front AoE snare on IB. The tools which order doesn't gets- order gets tools which destro doesn't gets.
...

Same to you as to Aluviya- learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.

IB AoE snare is not working like the BG one :

IB : The ground around you cracks and shatters and snares all enemies within 30 feet, reducing their run speed by 40% for 10 seconds.

BG : A great wave spreads 40 feet in front of you, inflicting 322 damage and reducing movement by 40% for 10 seconds.

But hey, same to you - learn what abilities classes actually have, before posting.

Also, if you have time and friends, try to build a RDPS premade Order side. You'll see the difference. Aluviya and I (from 2 differents guilds) did multiple 6-men RDPS, both side, and one is clearly easier.

Will give this one to you- remembered them being mirrors (with IB version doing x2 dmg at full grudges), missed the 10 ft range difference.

And I don't play order However whatever difficulties you have run into (and I play solo roaming sorc, a worst kiting class in RoR), they aren't caused by abilities mirrored on both sides.

Honestly, won't respond to this anymore. I just don't get why people come here, accusing others of "not knowing xyz" rather then stating their opinion to the original post that was made here and boosting their post numbers overall (which usually have similar quality). This is why posting important suggestions on forums never end well. If you ever reach my level of gameplay we might then sit on a table again. Until then I am not interested in interactions that bring 0 input into the discussion of the BW's well being. Also if your most active toons are WE and DPS ZEALOT (kek) there is nothing left to discuss. TY.

If you post on forums, expect others to reply to your posts if they don't agree with them. This is why it is called a public forums.

Your level of gameplay- considering it is based on not knowing which abilities classes have, it will indeed be difficult. Not sure I am willing to consider hitting my head repeatedly into wall to cause amnesia, or similar methods.

Also, I'm impressed how you conveniently ignored one of my active toons being sorc.

[paperclipdog]

I love Sorc and BW as they are, vastly prefer the BW toolkit though, KD, HD and Fireball Barrage are **** awesome...

AOE:
Your obsession with Close Quarters worries me a bit (every gravord stream I watched...) and I wouldn't want to lose it for pve tbh.
That being said, a tactic to channel Annihilation/Disastrous Cascade on the move might just fall into that beautiful level of 'not mandatory, but viable alternative tactics' that I wish we had more of in this game. If it just added damage like the magus one, it would just become mandatory almost instantly and thus meh. Damage is also already high enough on both classes.

Rain of Fire should remain stationary, you are already trading safety for mobility there and the damage is too high to make it castable on the move. Nerfing the damage would make it almost pointless to use. Nerfing the range would make it just the same as your melee bombing.

ST:
Consistent ST damage could probably be achieved via tactics that change how your dots work. Longer duration but no more exlodey-ness. Long duration ignite and boiling blood as normal dot.
Add on top your instants/quick casts and you'd have fairly consistant dps without making it clunky like a one-button long duration channel.
What do you think about that solution?

A tactic that lets flames of ruin proc from dot ticks on top of that probably wouldn't interfere with your timestamp build. But it might break the aoe build. Could make it st dots only tho.

Tactics: int, long doots, proc doots, more procs


Edit: OR you make dots long as baseline and give the ability to change to timestamp via tactics: One shortens ignite but gives corp reduce, other condenses all dot ticks into one big tick after 5 seconds for boiling blood. That honestly seems more interesting design-wise.

____

Sorc has a bunch of useless **** abilities in the mastery trees. Could use some work. Ice Barrage and ranged KD when?