Black Ork Adjustment

[Cyrylius]

2h SM is viable for competitive play, 2h blork is not.

Everything you say is really crap, and I'm really weighing my words. Imagine what I should say in reality, but it would be extremely banishable, you are really very lucky mate !

Feel free to, truth generally defends itself fairly effectively.

[Evilspinnre]

2h SM is viable for competitive play, 2h blork is not.

Everything you say is really crap, and I'm really weighing my words. Imagine what I should say in reality, but it would be extremely banishable, you are really very lucky mate !

The top 2 ranked teams on the server run 2h swordmaster for their order comps

[IVendettaI]

2h SM is viable for competitive play, 2h blork is not.

Everything you say is really crap, and I'm really weighing my words. Imagine what I should say in reality, but it would be extremely banishable, you are really very lucky mate !

The top 2 ranked teams on the server run 2h swordmaster for their order comps

Ah but I'm sure that the SM 2H are good, but Black Orks are too. That it's less is one thing, but that it sucks as some people say, it's just wrong. Most people who argue about this game are just frustrated people who don't agree with the way the class plays, and they call themselves it sucks. No it's not bad, that's all. I agree that the class needs adjustments (hence the topic) but not to the point of saying that the class sucks

[Cyrylius]

No, black ork is just not good in 2h spec. There are niche utility functions snb version can fill, especially with the morale pump. There are no good reasons to take 2h blork for 6 man content you will be better with any other tank pretty much period. Call me frustrated, wrong and say that i don't agree with the way the class plays a much as you wish, you're not changing that.
The only reason to play 2h blork is that you enjoy the class, which I respect but it shouldn't really be used in balance discussions.

[IVendettaI]

No, black ork is just not good in 2h spec. There are niche utility functions snb version can fill, especially with the morale pump. There are no good reasons to take 2h blork for 6 man content you will be better with any other tank pretty much period. Call me frustrated, wrong and say that i don't agree with the way the class plays a much as you wish, you're not changing that.
The only reason to play 2h blork is that you enjoy the class, which I respect but it shouldn't really be used in balance discussions.

HAHAHAHA, you think if people play 2H, it's just for a kind of enjoying ? in a game like RoR ? So big number of players plays 2H BO just for "enjoying"... In a game like RoR if you have the feeling of being weak you feel it very quickly and you stop playing as you play, otherwise your build is viable. OR you can stop the game too if you have the feeling of being weak. And I see a lot of 2H BO... So, I think you are wrong, AGAIN.

[Cyrylius]

Ok, so your argument is you feel like I'm wrong. Fair.
Seriously, however, people playing 2h blork means nothing. The class offers spammable AoE on a tank, and while the gameplay is fun it's just not really that valuable. And, if you are so hellbent on defending blork, what do you gain from swapping 2h bg or chosen for a blork? Find more than 1 such thing, please.

[IVendettaI]

Ok, so your argument is you feel like I'm wrong. Fair.
Seriously, however, people playing 2h blork means nothing. The class offers spammable AoE on a tank, and while the gameplay is fun it's just not really that valuable. And, if you are so hellbent on defending blork, what do you gain from swapping 2h bg or chosen for a blork? Find more than 1 such thing, please.

No, my argument isn't just "you are wrong". I explain why you are wrong for me. spammable AoE is a good build, but not the only build. 2H Blorks have :

- 2 armor debuffs
- You Wot!?!!!
- T'ree Hit Combo hits once more than other tanks (so more crit rate)
- 20% crit with Best plan (so T'ree Hit Combo)
- Wounds Racial tactic
- 25% crit damage Racial tactic

Spammable Best plan is an option, not the only option.

[Cyrylius]

Spammable aoe build is not a good build, its a fun build. Now, point by point:
• 2 armor debuffs is redundant, you already have one on bg and mara - with a higher value too, mind you. And that's me ignoring the resistance bellow question.
• you wot is a defensive tool. I can safely assume that all tanks will survive their guarded target taking damage one way or another.
• any other tank brings 100% damage amplification by means of punting away guarding tank. Channel damage is not really comparable.
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And that is me just replying to your arguments. I didnt even bother to bring up all the other things chosen and bg can offer to a group.

[IVendettaI]

Spammable aoe build is not a good build, its a fun build. Now, point by point:
• 2 armor debuffs is redundant, you already have one on bg and mara - with a higher value too, mind you. And that's me ignoring the resistance bellow question.
• you wot is a defensive tool. I can safely assume that all tanks will survive their guarded target taking damage one way or another.
• any other tank brings 100% damage amplification by means of punting away guarding tank. Channel damage is not really comparable.
• (omitted)
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And that is me just replying to your arguments. I didnt even bother to bring up all the other things chosen and bg can offer to a group.

. You Wot!?!!! isn't only a defensive tool, it's a damage buff too. With You Wot!?!!!, I have 6000+ armor, 800+ all resistances, 50% block, 60% parry, 45% dodge, 48% dispel chance every 20 seconds, all for 10 seconds. With Chop Fasta, it's every 5 seconds. For a 2H Black Orc, you can reach 90% parry or more.

. What are you talking about? The game mechanics or what a class can bring to the mechanics? Yes, everyone can deal 100% extra damage to someone without a guard. Is that your argument to say that a Black Guard is better than a Black Ork? Because we are discussing the class bonuses here, and the Black Ork has a tactic that increases their crit damage by 25%. So, a Black Ork on a target without a guard deals 100% + 25% crit damage. They can also play without crits using Loudmouth, which is a bit like a crit without having a crit, and I really like it.

. "Omitted" x 3, why???

Black Ork can offer a lot to a group. Da Greenest! provides the best resistance buff and more armor than any other potion in the game (990 for me, can give 1000+ I think), and some people have 660 armor potions. With Loudmouth, Black Ork can deal damage with Da Greenest! and kill. Black Ork can also provide a small heal to your group with War Bellow and tactics. Black Ork can steal stats. If people know this and play with this, they can use other potions, for example. Black Ork can silence and knockdown opponents. Black Ork has no-cost spells. Black Ork has 20% damage reduction. Black Ork is one of the best corporeal debuffers.

Black Orks are good, but some redundant spells like stats buff spells need adjustments.

[Cyrylius]

You missed a fair share of points here.
1. You don't even know the skill. Its 30 seconds cooldown, 20 seconds duration then 10 seconds debuff. Nullified completely by root break, so not really worth mentioning. Now, while it's certainly impressive, 6k armor and 800 resistances is not really needed. Normal tanks are already sitting at 5k+ and the additional 1k changes very little, if someone plans to try killing a tank armor will be negated one way or another. And every tank has ways to counter it, be it morales, potions, active abilities or raw stats. You can't reach 90% parry on blork, you get to about 50% with all buffs without counting weapon skill. So about as much as any tank +10% from the tactic and you wot while it is active. Argument can be made that you don't have to use parry buff weapon from bbbe, but, again, not a huge advantage. So, as i mentioned, your defensive capabilities are not that impressive, bg is probably still more durable in 2h spec unless against casters.
2. Blork damage advantage is not enough to compensate lack of ST punt. Everyone can deal 100% more damage to someone without a guard. You CANNOT remove guard. So you don't provide this effect. And you don't do anywhere close to enough damage to crunch through guard if there is any healing involved. Loudmouth is amazing, yes. Hitting guarded targets is not, and no matter how many damage tactics you slot, even FO, you still won't change more than any other tank will with a punt. That's two of the omitted points, where you attempted to convince me that blork doing more damage is a huge value.
3. If your resistance buff has a timer visible on buffhead and relies on 25% chance to proc IF SOMEONE IS HITTING YOU (the tank) then you have no resistance buff. And situation is marginally better with armor. Which means that the chances of it being up are higher and the bonus is bigger, but you don't have any other potions to drink in place of armor one. So you will be using it anyway. As a side note, you get 1k+ blue rare bottles pots, but noone really bothers so let's say they don't exist just for you. Da greenest is the worst of the three bellows, its inconsistent in three different ways and easy to play around in closed environments for anyone who cares. Oh, and chosen provides the same resistance buff... but consistently, permanently and with debuffing enemy resistances as an extra. Healing from bellow is hilariously low, numbers look like its more than it really is a it procs for full value on unharmed players. Blork damage will kill random pugs but its nowhere near close to be threatening to a semi decent group. Yes stat steal is great. No, people can't use other potions cause its not reliable enough. In blob, while spamming AoE, i was very often not getting all buffs. Its amazing debuff tool, yes. And waaagh! Is the best ability corp debuff.
But, guess what, you can take both those things on snb spec. It's viable, reasonably nice to play and we discussed that like 3 pages ago. You will run stat steal on 2h blork, probably, due to the amount of points you already invest into the tree, but it can be done with snb and it will be working much better in orvr. And, to finish this: all tanks have a ton of utility. Blork just gets less. No cost spells don't matter, ap economy needs to be maintained regardless for the dps classes. All tanks have kd. Silence is rarely useful and specifically AoE silence is never useful if you can't use it at range. You are trying to justify the class by bringing things that you can get with any other tank, easier and with less opportunity cost.
Try playing other classes, really. It's good to have a wider perspective on the game than tunnel vision.