Patch Notes 30/03/2023

[HammerGuy]

Who thought that reducing the warcrests received by the surrendering team was a good thing? What is it supposed to accomplish? 80% of the time the team that surrenders does so because they not only can't win, but because they're getting stomped. All this will do is make losing even more painful. It does nothing to resolve the lop-sided nature of scenarios.

If you want to make scenarios fun, even for the losing side, you have to make it so the losing side has a fighting chance to get more crests and renown. If the losing side feels like they're going to get farmed for the next 3 minutes, why would they bother going out at all? Whereas, if they feel like they can get a few kills at the very least, then they'll have a reason to keep trying.

The fastest way to accomplish that there would be to have some kind of buff given to the losing side as the battle progresses. For instance, for every 50 point difference in the overall score the losing side gets a 5% damage and heal bonus. Or at the very least give a war camp buff, similar to what's in open RvR, so that they're not so easily camped.

If you're not willing to give out buffs to the losing side then there are other ways to balance scenarios, such as making objectives giving more renown than kills, moving the objectives to encourage a team to disperse rather than concentrate, or making murderballs easier to access (why don't they spawn in the losing side's camp?).

[Brizio]

I think it's funny how ppl think replies on patch notes are read or counts for anything.

[rejndjer]

I think it's funny how ppl think replies on patch notes are read or counts for anything.

ofc it's read. this change to surrender didn't come out of the blue. it has been suggested for some time now by the profesional ror players. git gud scrubs, if you're new player and dont have 5 BIS rr90+ friends to carry you in sc, then dont even queue.

[ravezaar]

no such thing as professional RoR players, none makes a living on RoR so that term is invalid here

[forsa]

no such thing as professional RoR players, none makes a living on RoR so that term is invalid here

It is a hint. There is a known ror "pro streamer" who requested changes to SC rewards, coincidentally similar to current patch.

[Lithenir]

Moreover RoR is almost turning 10 years old, and you refer to things that happened back in 2009? RoR is almost twice as old as Live got, maybe you should let go of Live.

Lets cut this short, because you put so much effort into misunderstanding what I say that it's not even worth to make this post.

I hope that at least you believe all the things you said.
Enjoy the few weeks that group ranked is alive again since it has been dead for 95% of its existence. Then the elite premades can go back to stumping pugs/regular premades, which is basicely what happens since RoR is alive.

Anyway thanks for reminding me, why I keep myself from posting on the forums

[Cornerback]

What *will* alter behavior is using your position in design to find ways of proving they aren’t helpless. Mythic knew this. Guards to punish spawn camper hubris or super powered siege weapons in camps were two methods included expressly for this purpose. Unfortunately, over time you either removed or neutered both. Now there’s nothing to do but afk and wait to lose - or surrender and save some time. Everybody chooses the latter. Remove rewards for those who do that and you’ll be left with the former. And if you think they won’t AFK, I can personally promise you that pug teams faced with premade farm teams who ignore objectives to spawn camp for kills are absolutely stacked with players who are more than happy to sit safely out of range and taunt the premade for fifteen minutes instead of giving them they easy kills that they want. And those premades will be right back on your doorstep screaming for harsher punishments on AFKers or people that don’t leave the spawn.

Yeah, in retrospect many of the things Mythic did were actually quite clever and thought through.
Which cannot be said about recent developments here. Here it seems more about changing stuff for the sake of changing something without putting too much design effort into it first.
Tbh, I'm not sure the game right now is in a better state than it was back on live 10 years ago...

[Rapzel]

Moreover RoR is almost turning 10 years old, and you refer to things that happened back in 2009? RoR is almost twice as old as Live got, maybe you should let go of Live.

Lets cut this short, because you put so much effort into misunderstanding what I say that it's not even worth to make this post.

I hope that at least you believe all the things you said.
Enjoy the few weeks that group ranked is alive again since it has been dead for 95% of its existence. Then the elite premades can go back to stumping pugs/regular premades, which is basicely what happens since RoR is alive.

Anyway thanks for reminding me, why I keep myself from posting on the forums

You have not been able to counter any of my claims, rather the opposite. If you were knowledgeable in how 6vs6 and premades work and what drives them, you would be able to actually present some sort of hypothesis other than "they do it to boost their ego", there may be those groups, but this inductive reasoning does not make sense in this context, especially since it through deductive reasoning can be proven to be a false claim. The whole initial premise is a syllogistic error, to start with.
This leads to the fact that you seem to have no argument at all, all that you seem to want to do is to vent frustration on the forums, I guess this is your coping mechanism for what you struggle with in life.
Your responses to me have contained contradictions of your own previous statements in the same post and a lack of logic on which you base your lets call it "argumentation", nor have you answered my questions or provided proof of your credibility.
Kaeldrick points out the same logical flaws in your "argument" as I do, and you try to brush it off with the regular "read the post", we have both read your post and it does contradict itself, which two independent people now have pointed out.

Furthermore I have to give you credit for you swapping out my text with a picture, to shield yourself more from having to answer or provide any proof, well played.

When it comes to the last part where you believe group ranked will be dead soon, I hope we'll see the Elements premade tearing through group ranked soon, just to kill it. As it is so easy to create these premades now days, and in particular with a experienced, skilled and renowned 6vs6 player as you.

[lemao]

Moreover RoR is almost turning 10 years old, and you refer to things that happened back in 2009? RoR is almost twice as old as Live got, maybe you should let go of Live.

Lets cut this short, because you put so much effort into misunderstanding what I say that it's not even worth to make this post.

I hope that at least you believe all the things you said.
Enjoy the few weeks that group ranked is alive again since it has been dead for 95% of its existence. Then the elite premades can go back to stumping pugs/regular premades, which is basicely what happens since RoR is alive.

Anyway thanks for reminding me, why I keep myself from posting on the forums

You have not been able to counter any of my claims, rather the opposite. If you were knowledgeable in how 6vs6 and premades work and what drives them, you would be able to actually present some sort of hypothesis other than "they do it to boost their ego", there may be those groups, but this inductive reasoning does not make sense in this context, especially since it through deductive reasoning can be proven to be a false claim. The whole initial premise is a syllogistic error, to start with.
This leads to the fact that you seem to have no argument at all, all that you seem to want to do is to vent frustration on the forums, I guess this is your coping mechanism for what you struggle with in life.
Your responses to me have contained contradictions of your own previous statements in the same post and a lack of logic on which you base your lets call it "argumentation", nor have you answered my questions or provided proof of your credibility.
Kaeldrick points out the same logical flaws in your "argument" as I do, and you try to brush it off with the regular "read the post", we have both read your post and it does contradict itself, which two independent people now have pointed out.

Furthermore I have to give you credit for you swapping out my text with a picture, to shield yourself more from having to answer or provide any proof, well played.

When it comes to the last part where you believe group ranked will be dead soon, I hope we'll see the Elements premade tearing through group ranked soon, just to kill it. As it is so easy to create these premades now days, and in particular with a experienced, skilled and renowned 6vs6 player as you.

Spot on. Putting people in their places who have no idea what their talking about and don´t bring any arguments.

[cromathor]

The changes to concession prize crests still haven’t actually been justified.

What problem is the change attempting to solve?

We’re just assuming that the staff believes surrendering a match doesn’t “deserve” 2 crests, but that’s pure conjecture as nobody seems to be communicating what the problem was. A GM on Discord claims there was an organized surrender ring to farm crests, which is both as effective and as plausible as it sounds.

Who is this change for?

This is the hairy bit, because the obvious answer is “pub stompers in Tier 4,” which either means the problem being solved is “the hardcore are mad they aren’t getting to farm players for 15 minutes straight,” or that the change is so poorly thought out that who would benefit from the change was simply never considered.

Given there’s a special clause just for Tier 4, somebody clearly put at least a little thought in, so I strongly suspect it’s the former. That would imply the hardcore minority who spend their time chasing off new users have socially engineered their way into the design space. This is always toxic and red flag on par with “the calls are coming from inside the house.” Thirty seconds of critical thinking should reveal why you shouldn’t let people who are already in positions of power dictate policy.

Are you trying to motivate people not to surrender? Negative reinforcement is the wrong tool to use for all the same reasons economic austerity doesn’t work: animals which feel helpless stop trying - including humans. It’s called learned helplessness. Making people feel more helpless will not alter behavior.

What *will* alter behavior is using your position in design to find ways of proving they aren’t helpless. Mythic knew this. Guards to punish spawn camper hubris or super powered siege weapons in camps were two methods included expressly for this purpose. Unfortunately, over time you either removed or neutered both. Now there’s nothing to do but afk and wait to lose - or surrender and save some time. Everybody chooses the latter. Remove rewards for those who do that and you’ll be left with the former. And if you think they won’t AFK, I can personally promise you that pug teams faced with premade farm teams who ignore objectives to spawn camp for kills are absolutely stacked with players who are more than happy to sit safely out of range and taunt the premade for fifteen minutes instead of giving them they easy kills that they want. And those premades will be right back on your doorstep screaming for harsher punishments on AFKers or people that don’t leave the spawn.

These are all really good points, but I'd like to add the question:

Who is this going to punish?

Players on losing teams who are actually trying to do their best despite the circumstances. Which seems strange, considering that the spirit of a change such as this is supposed to foster more effort and reward players that don't quit. It's counter to the entire point of the change.