Scenario Rework

[Tanski]

Seems redundant to talk about ranged dps in scenarios when we are so close to big balance patch.

“2 weeks”

[Gravord]

You are mistaken if you think casual players like myself will stay and fight. Trust me, we'll just log and not do scenarios anymore.

But hows that different or worse compared to what you have now already? And why wouldnt you fight if your enemy is in your weight category and you actually have a chance to win? Ive already linked typical no matchmaking sc we got just yesterday, waste of time for everyone involved.
viewtopic.php?t=50317&start=40#p530256

Because the system you propose still has PUGs fighting against premades. Sure, we'd get a bare minimum of tanks/healers as a PUG but do you honestly think that will help any PUG to survive against a premade?

Yes i do, being a premade doesnt guarantee win and there are premades of varied qualities too. System im proposing would match whole 12vs12 close as possible. If one side gets strong premade then their second party would be likely full pug of balanced setup while opponents get 2 medium level 6 mans if possible and similar configurations.
You dont need pugs protected for their whole life from premades. Premade players are also pug when their teams are not online and they provide value to the teams they get matched with. In the same you are not destined to live and die pug, you can improve. Bring value to teams you are matched to, even if you have no time or dedication to be part of a regular team. Its a bit sad how easily ppl write themselves off as forever weak and lost cause that need pampering to even log in and play. You have capacity to improve, take it. And you improve most in hard games, where all your weaknesses get exposed, you see where you need to put work to do better next time.

[Tanski]

But hows that different or worse compared to what you have now already? And why wouldnt you fight if your enemy is in your weight category and you actually have a chance to win? Ive already linked typical no matchmaking sc we got just yesterday, waste of time for everyone involved.
viewtopic.php?t=50317&start=40#p530256

Because the system you propose still has PUGs fighting against premades. Sure, we'd get a bare minimum of tanks/healers as a PUG but do you honestly think that will help any PUG to survive against a premade?

Yes i do, being a premade doesnt guarantee win and there are premades of varied qualities too. System im proposing would match whole 12vs12 close as possible. If one side gets strong premade then their second party would be likely full pug of balanced setup while opponents get 2 medium level 6 mans if possible and similar configurations.
You dont need pugs protected for their whole life from premades. Premade players are also pug when their team are not online and they provide value to the teams they get matched with. In the same you are not destined to live and die pug, you can improve. Bring value to teams you are matched to, even if you have no time or dedication to be part of a regular team. Its a bit sad how easily ppl write themselves off as forever weak and lost cause that need pampering to even log in and play. You have capacity to improve, take it. And you improve most in hard games, where all your weaknesses get exposed, you see where you need to put work to do better next time.

I think the idea is great and definently worth a try , but don’t know if it will pan out in reality.

Our current system would work perfectly fine if groups would form for 6v6 and the pugs could que discordant and everyone would be happy. In reality you have at most a handful of good 6s that form throughout the week and people stacking duos in discordant. Even if your idea is great , the players here will find a way to cheese it in their favor to avoid good fights and farm pugs. Also a lot of the population here really isn’t competent at the game nor wants to learn/improve, they are already getting farmed in discordant by stacking duos.

You seem pretty high on the mmr thing , It should only be attributed to groups imo, not solo players. People will just stack in the new system to inflate their solo mmr. I also worry that an mmr system will just make extremely long ques for everyone.

Honestly can’t be worse than what we have, almost every sc being over before it starts .

[Gravord]

Because the system you propose still has PUGs fighting against premades. Sure, we'd get a bare minimum of tanks/healers as a PUG but do you honestly think that will help any PUG to survive against a premade?

Yes i do, being a premade doesnt guarantee win and there are premades of varied qualities too. System im proposing would match whole 12vs12 close as possible. If one side gets strong premade then their second party would be likely full pug of balanced setup while opponents get 2 medium level 6 mans if possible and similar configurations.
You dont need pugs protected for their whole life from premades. Premade players are also pug when their team are not online and they provide value to the teams they get matched with. In the same you are not destined to live and die pug, you can improve. Bring value to teams you are matched to, even if you have no time or dedication to be part of a regular team. Its a bit sad how easily ppl write themselves off as forever weak and lost cause that need pampering to even log in and play. You have capacity to improve, take it. And you improve most in hard games, where all your weaknesses get exposed, you see where you need to put work to do better next time.

I think the idea is great and definently worth a try , but don’t know if it will pan out in reality.

Our current system would work perfectly fine if groups would form for 6v6 and the pugs could que discordant and everyone would be happy. In reality you have at most a handful of good 6s that form throughout the week and people stacking duos in discordant. Even if your idea is great , the players here will find a way to cheese it in their favor to avoid good fights and farm pugs. Also a lot of the population here really isn’t competent at the game nor wants to learn/improve, they are already getting farmed in discordant by stacking duos.

You seem pretty high on the mmr thing , It should only be attributed to groups imo, not solo players. People will just stack in the new system to inflate their solo mmr. I also worry that an mmr system will just make extremely long ques for everyone.

Honestly can’t be worse than what we have, almost every sc being over before it starts .

Current system cant work even in ideal situation. Its impossible for guilds to have constant full 6 man, you stuck on 4-5, sometimes you get 7-8 online, no premade guild can sustain on just perfect 6 ppl always online, you need replacements and even with those you might have not enough online in specific day. Only combined sc balances it out and gives pug players taste of what this game truly has to offer in organized team. And what stopping them to join those teams on that day for few more regular sc? Maybe even take the crazy step of joining voice comms? And that makes them better, bit by bit over time they improve as players. Sitting forever in pug galore with 11 dps 1 tank wont do that.

Mmr is a must for solo players, so we get the champions abusing pug sc for last few months with their inflated mmrs only playing top tier group games and see how it works for them
And inflating your mmr means you get only the toughest opponents, meaning ppl doing that dont get to farm weaker end of pugs, isnt that something full time pugs exactly would want?

[Kazrahim]

Honestly the idea of putting ppl to HAVE To fight to make them better is bad. I like SC, and I qué every day for at least 2 4 times.
The sad part is most often I get pitted up against premades who just stomp not organized pugs. And it doesn't matter if we have 2/2/2. Your not on Comms, you probably don't know how to play your class well and getting a SC with 70 to 0 kills will not make You better.
You can say as much as You want about forcing ppl to get better but look at games like WoT. Teams of 15vs15 randoms. The usuall saying is 1 Vs 29 cause You can't depend on your team.
If you try to force ppl to get mowed down even more then the solution for a lot of them will be not to q up, not get better at it. This is a game not something that You have to do.

Tltr. You can give the mm priority for 2/2/2 but don't force ppl into a bad game just cause u think they will learn and improve. They don't have to and most likely won't.

[nocturnalguest]

I guess it cant be worse than it is now, so tweaking and testing things out is definitely a great goal. However i'd like to add that i strongly believe that adjusting ranked ui window to show archetypes and full 6 groups in q for realms for regular SCs as well is what can really benefit most. Almost everyone has a ton of toons either geared or not both sides and checking if someone benefit either realm currently lacking healers/tanks is really good way for players to balance the system out.
In regards to this pug vs premade discussion i think its pretty delusional at this point honestly. There are so very very few true premades with core people with exceptional skills that this game is already really close to full pug. In the very end what matters most is group composition of proper classes with proper builds/specs, its way more important then everything else. Then goes quality of MA (main assist) and shotcalls (assuming randoms are not on comms so they lacking hugely here obviously). Then follows teamplay/coordination within group and the last one important thing being personal player skills (aka good GCD management, pressing proper buttons in proper time). Just good composition alone, without comms, with only swiftassist button, without experience of specifically playing as a regular team would definitely sky rocket the fighting chances and reduce the amount of absolutely horrible stomps. To me its clear as day.

Add: in regards to people who says if SCs would require more efforts to play them they will choose to not put efforts and gonna just skip them. i'd like to ask - what is your reasoning to join them in the first place? If you want to press 1 while drinking beer why do you even bother and q there? There are open orvr wb's, there is pve, there is like i dunno crafting mats farm.

[Gravord]

However i'd like to add that i strongly believe that adjusting ranked ui window to show archetypes and full 6 groups in q for realms for regular SCs as well is what can really benefit most. Almost everyone has a ton of toons either geared or not both sides and checking if someone benefit either realm currently lacking healers/tanks is really good way for players to balance the system out.

Absolutely. Perhaps not detailed number of players per archetype as in ranked but simple color coding of heavy-medium-low populated archetypes would suffice.

[Toggle]

Is this really what you prefer over bit slower pop (and not so necessarily slower if all types of q are combined into one) that actually gives both sides balanced setup and a fighting chance?
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1738158426?t=03h59m47s

Unfortunately, I have already experienced this “fix” in my time zone. The pops weren’t “a bit slower”. They were almost nonexistent. I would play for 2 hours and get 2 SCs to pop in that amount of time. So, to answer your question again, yes. I would prefer to play more crappy SCs than only 1 or 2 during the time I get to play. Period.

As already explained, previous attempt of matchmaking left players option to q 8 different sc at the same time which obviously lead to slower pops for everyone...

Sorry, but still no. There are SCs I despise (I’m looking at you Talabec.) and choose not to play. I also don’t think the wait times would be that much less during the times when I am able to play, even if all players were in the same “pool”. Having the 2-2-2 requirement is the issue that causes them not to pop.

I appreciate people putting in time to try and improve the game, but I don’t agree that any sort of matchmaking would be a net positive for the game, especially when I play. No hard feelings, but I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Wakisaka]

Or just make a true discordant queue. Only solos, mixing of order and destruction on the same teams.
Lore be damned. Good luck trying to game that it will just throw you and your buddy on opposite teams.
The better you are the more you need to carry terrible players like myself up Mt. Tryhard.

I can for sure tell you which queue would be vastly more popular.
It won't happen of course but one can dream...

You know there is already a scenario with 2-2-2 setups guaranteed, only solo queueing and mixed teams so you can't stack semi-premades on one side?
It also gives ~2x the rewards of a normal scenario.

We don't have that. We have something that was made that was similar called ranked solo. Makes my idea even better since most of the code is already there. All you need to do is remove the gear requirements and MMR aspects and it is good to go.

[Gravord]

Unfortunately, I have already experienced this “fix” in my time zone. The pops weren’t “a bit slower”. They were almost nonexistent. I would play for 2 hours and get 2 SCs to pop in that amount of time. So, to answer your question again, yes. I would prefer to play more crappy SCs than only 1 or 2 during the time I get to play. Period.

As already explained, previous attempt of matchmaking left players option to q 8 different sc at the same time which obviously lead to slower pops for everyone...

Sorry, but still no. There are SCs I despise (I’m looking at you Talabec.) and choose not to play. I also don’t think the wait times would be that much less during the times when I am able to play, even if all players were in the same “pool”. Having the 2-2-2 requirement is the issue that causes them not to pop.

I appreciate people putting in time to try and improve the game, but I don’t agree that any sort of matchmaking would be a net positive for the game, especially when I play. No hard feelings, but I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cant convince them all