Lots of Numbers: 100k ORVR kills by careers

[Glorian]

...
"Stand out things" are very irrelevant here and unnecessary.
Also very very few people play AoE DPS engi/magi properly. Here is an example what vanq engi can do https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... d783b5152b (yes they wont reach such numbers in oRvR, however they are very far from being bad aoe dps, they are just not stackable unlike BW/sorc. and thats for a reason, i cant imagine hell on earth with their aoe being made stackable. truly a nightmare)
...

Some BW/Sorc Stuff is also non stackable. But overall yes, Engis Napalm and Phosphourus Shells is non stacking. Meaning 1 Engi firing it or 24 at the same spot doesn't make a difference. Also some of it was nerfed with the Turret nerf and Napalm Nerf a year ago because Restlingun was doing too much damage in city.
This is of course differently if 8 Choppas or 8 Slayers put out Damage on a 30ft AoE Area.

High RR Engis not AoE enough and not dying enough is because we like to change positions often.

Spoiler:

[lumpi33]

"Stand out things" are very irrelevant here and unnecessary.
Also very very few people play AoE DPS engi/magi properly. Here is an example what vanq engi can do https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... d783b5152b (yes they wont reach such numbers in oRvR, however they are very far from being bad aoe dps, they are just not stackable unlike BW/sorc. and thats for a reason, i cant imagine hell on earth with their aoe being made stackable. truly a nightmare)

@OP
Thanks for your data analysis and efforts. Greatly appreciated

"Stand out things" are not irrelevant. What else should be relevant if not stand out things?

You can argue about the reason of why the numbers are that way but not about the fact that they are like they are.

These numbers are for sure more telling than 1 SC of 1 Engi where Order was dominating hard and Destro was probably weak. Show me a city where there were no slayers and no wls carrying.

As engi / magus you have an ability 10 points deep in a tree on a 16s cooldown that does literally 0 damage when another engi / magus hits the same spot with it (shells/firestorm). In ORVR it is very likely that there is another engi / magus that tries to hit the same spot. One engi / magus does 0 damage in that case and still gets the cooldown. Melee dps does not have that problem. They just keep stacking their aoe. That's one reason of the big difference in kills.

[lumpi33]

...
"Stand out things" are very irrelevant here and unnecessary.
Also very very few people play AoE DPS engi/magi properly. Here is an example what vanq engi can do https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... d783b5152b (yes they wont reach such numbers in oRvR, however they are very far from being bad aoe dps, they are just not stackable unlike BW/sorc. and thats for a reason, i cant imagine hell on earth with their aoe being made stackable. truly a nightmare)
...

Some BW/Sorc Stuff is also non stackable. But overall yes, Engis Napalm and Phosphourus Shells is non stacking. Meaning 1 Engi firing it or 24 at the same spot doesn't make a difference. Also some of it was nerfed with the Turret nerf and Napalm Nerf a year ago because Restlingun was doing too much damage in city.
This is of course differently if 8 Choppas or 8 Slayers put out Damage on a 30ft AoE Area.

High RR Engis not AoE enough and not dying enough is because we like to change positions often.

Spoiler:

Yes, your sniper squad is probably the reason for the stand out survivability of the engis.

[tazdingo]

discordant scs with shamans making up almost half of destro aren't even rare

[nocturnalguest]

"Stand out things" are not irrelevant. What else should be relevant if not stand out things?

You can argue about the reason of why the numbers are that way but not about the fact that they are like they are.

These numbers are for sure more telling than 1 SC of 1 Engi where Order was dominating hard and Destro was probably weak. Show me a city where there were no slayers and no wls carrying.

As engi / magus you have an ability 10 points deep in a tree on a 16s cooldown that does literally 0 damage when another engi / magus hits the same spot with it (shells/firestorm). In ORVR it is very likely that there is another engi / magus that tries to hit the same spot. One engi / magus does 0 damage in that case and still gets the cooldown. Melee dps does not have that problem. They just keep stacking their aoe. That's one reason of the big difference in kills.

1. Quantative + qualitive analysis with in-depth understanding how "meta" gameplay actually works and why. What you present is actually way far from making any kind of assumptions (however being very very cool for "overview for shits and giggles").

2. I dont argue. Im able to explain those numbers very well. Just as many of those who posted here opinions that look like "oh cool stuff bro, but those raw numbers represent nothing balance wise".

3. No they do not. Why would you consider city without slayer and wls as any kind of representive? Its not. Why are you considering them carrying? They do not, its team effort. Your claim is very bald here. You simply dont understand that its highly organised premades both sides. NM&Daydream+TUP (and even some who still wear Fusion tag, hilarious) "probably weak" haha, nice one. You dont understand what you are looking at, i consider.

4. Oh no, this i cant comment. Most of points icredibly wrong/twisted. If you want me to go into details here it would require a very in-depth lectures and walls of text for which im not currently in a mood. Tag me if you want me to elaborate, but its very far from being abilities being "10 points deep in a tree" and "doing 0 damage" and "still getting a cd" and blablabla. Engi/magi are way more demanding rotation wise, their stuff forgives no mistakes, you need very good movement on those classes (same ofc goes for skilled BW/sorc, but its much easier for them).

[BluIzLucky]

Destro tanks kills almost double the order tanks kills

So we have two options:
A. Destro tanks make too much dmg
B. Destro Dps make too less dmg

Nah, it's C. Order tank AoE dmg for orvr is non-existent..
SMs will have to give up a bunch of stuff to get the only worthwhile aoe (PW) and mechanic prevents it from being spammed.
BO gets to spam theirs and have aoes as base abilities.
IB i don't think has anything useful in 2H for orvr and 99% of them go SnB.
BG is probably best AoE dmg tank.
Knight can go 2h, but doesn't do dmg even then.
Chosen, can go 2h and does good dmg.


Order (less so SM) are also worse for soloing to whatever extend that matters

[Evilspinnre]

Both sl and choppa have a cookie cutter build for wb play that pretty much everyone plays. Magus on the other hand has a very strong solo st build, that is only second to am / shaman. Naturally most magi in the lakes run this build, which results in lesser kills overall, because of lack of aoe. Despite not being as strong as a magus, engi also has a very fun snipe build that is used by many puggers as well as the BT.

You know slayer WB build is the exact same as slayer small scale build?

[nocturnalguest]

Both sl and choppa have a cookie cutter build for wb play that pretty much everyone plays. Magus on the other hand has a very strong solo st build, that is only second to am / shaman. Naturally most magi in the lakes run this build, which results in lesser kills overall, because of lack of aoe. Despite not being as strong as a magus, engi also has a very fun snipe build that is used by many puggers as well as the BT.

You know slayer WB build is the exact same as slayer small scale build?

You clearly know yourself that its not. Unless you consider by build mastery points spent or by small scale consider 12-18v12-18 SC pug stopming. Or do you use PfM&SoS in city? I know you dont
orvr/aoe grp - je+accuracy
6v6/st - pfm+sos/pfm+something

[Scottx125]

This data doesn't account for the number of people per class. You could in all that data have 10 engineers and 500 slayers. Doesn't really tell the story of how each class independently operates in an ORVR settings if the numbers are skewed massively by one class outnumbering another, which does affect the data. We'd need to know how many of each class made up the data set and then scale those values as a representation of how many of each class there are in relation to each other.

For example, I know a good grenadier engineer can be quite tanky and also do a TON of AOE DPS in cities. It topped the dps chart of my guilds most recent city. But it has low killing damage. Different classes do different things. Which this data doesn't reflect. A ST engineer of a certain skill level will have a different number of kills/deaths than an AoE engineer. Lumping them all together muddies the data.

[lumpi33]

This data doesn't account for the number of people per class. You could in all that data have 10 engineers and 500 slayers. Doesn't really tell the story of how each class independently operates in an ORVR settings if the numbers are skewed massively by one class outnumbering another, which does affect the data. We'd need to know how many of each class made up the data set and then scale those values as a representation of how many of each class there are in relation to each other.

For example, I know a good grenadier engineer can be quite tanky and also do a TON of AOE DPS in cities. It topped the dps chart of my guilds most recent city. But it has low killing damage. Different classes do different things. Which this data doesn't reflect. A ST engineer of a certain skill level will have a different number of kills/deaths than an AoE engineer. Lumping them all together muddies the data.

It does account for number of people per class.

Example:

Code: Select all

ORDER - MOST KILLING BY CAREER (KILLS. PLAYERS. KILLS/PLAYERS):
SLAYER                  12064 -  21.2%      291 -   8.1%    41.46
ENGINEER                 4547 -  7.99%      298 -   8.3%    15.26

291 Slayers were counted doing 12064 kills.
298 Engis were counted doing 4547 kills.

So the 291 Slayers did 3 times the kills of the 298 Engis. What I can't tell is how long they played. Maybe the Slayers played for longer and therefore have more kill but when Engis were played less that is also telling.

PS: This is about ORVR only. Not SC, not City, not LOTD.