mathematically speaking we do have a balance problem

[Rapzel]

crutch on slayers? the engi almost got double kills and dmg than a slayer.

The only thing that matters in WB play is burst on important targets. Shitting out billions of chip aoe damage that's healed an instant later means nothing (aka what engineers and magus does). As for his DBs, my guess is that the dots just happened to do the last tick of damage after the slayers did all the burst.

Okay so lets just do some easy check, we have a total of 371 distributed between 11 players mean value 33,72... Now this is obviously a bit skewed since 3 of them are tanks so we'll just count the 8 DPS, which gives us a total of 349 and a mean value of 43,625. Without the edge cases we end up at 40,1666... looking at the majority of death blows from dps they fall within ±7 DB of this value, except for one DPS.
Now I don't have the energy nor the time to calculate how "lucky" he needs to be to get this amount of RNG to get close to twice as many DB as the rest of them, but I'm sure someone will.

[Aurandilaz]

another city as the underdog, 3 gold bags <3


(WL+SM deserve spanking for jumping+getting pulled into Destro spawn at end of s2 and giving enemy 2 kills)

I can dig up more screenshots if you keep loving the math

Does this mean Destro has balance issues? Should we nerf Slayers?

[balvor877]

Does this mean Destro has balance issues? Should we nerf Slayers?

The question should be: Why does it need slayers to beat destro?

[Aurandilaz]

Does this mean Destro has balance issues? Should we nerf Slayers?

The question should be: Why does it need slayers to beat destro?

nah actually went through +60 city screenshots from our order wbs, seems we running between 1-6 slayers always, average around 2-3. im starting to think having a class with undefendable aoe attacks and massive ST/AoE dmg pressure might be one of the key classes order needs in their warbands...
Then also found cities won with 3 Whs, or 4 SWs, or 6 WLs. Most likely the trick involves also having a team assisting each other and healers who dont instadie when slightly pressured. Tanks pressing buttons can also achieve magical results.

The 1-2 cities we lost as Destro also seem to occur when enemy had multiple 6man teams running Slayer melttrains all over our heals/dps.

[Evilest]

Does this mean Destro has balance issues? Should we nerf Slayers?

The question should be: Why does it need slayers to beat destro?

Slayers OP.
Order most affected!

[zulnam]

If people follow what i write here they know i often go against the "one faction is op" rhetoric. Be it order or destro, i do think most issues are easily described as "l2p".

That said the destro tank morale tactic , Destined for Victory, is utter bullsh!t. And nowhere is this more noticeable than cities.

We can go into deep analysis, but i think OP presented the situation nicely. Thanks block often. They get 200 morale every 3 seconds.

Meanwhile Order doesn't have a good morale counter and blocker like Mara. SW's barrage needs Vengeful and even then it does 100 morale drain. So that's 200 morale drain every 30s vs 225 every 10s.

[wonshot]

Meanwhile Order doesn't have a good morale counter and blocker like Mara. SW's barrage needs Vengeful and even then it does 100 morale drain. So that's 200 morale drain every 30s vs 225 every 10s.

I had this document laying around since.. dunno 2 years now and unless someone can pinpoint me overlooking something, i do think a Dragongun WH can actually manage to prevent a Destro none pump class like a mara from ever reaching M2. in a perfect situation with WW from a Swordmaster.
The document shows the natural morale per sec from the WH draining on the target without pump. Eachtime Dragongun is available and used, it adjusts the morale value of the target(s) hit.
https://imgur.com/a/ZUwJp6r

It is a little beside the original point of the topic creator. And while I would wish to ever play in 24v24 on Order as a damagedealer, and not be hit by Bellows before slayers can even go Yellow. We also have to acknowledge that these Moralepump tactics take up one tacticslot, whenever the Bellow is used that is tecnically 10sec uptime and 50seconds downtime where the tactic is not providing anything for the user if we assume the fight is over before next Bellow or M3/M4 comes out.

Order still manages to win against destro when they have these Tank block-pumps. And that raises the question, how badly overtuned would Order's damage output be in case destro didnt have these mitigation tools(?) Dont get me wrong, i HATE being Perma bellowed, but yet still manage to get kills.

Destro have thematically always had the overall advantage on morale minigame. After damage moraledrops were nerfed to have internal barrier reduction within the same second, both realms lost some TTK burst. However the advantage of destro selfpumps and mitigation probably has to stay, looking at how many warband nerfs has hit destro on their advantages over the years.

Bellow being the big thing standing out, maybe moving it back to M3 and swap wih Raze to M2 now that morale bombing is not as potent.
Fun fact all these high rolling engineer and magus damage screenies are probably because they are standing in the back not getting hit by challenges and Bellows like the melee trains and then rocking in less mitigation rolls. However the melee ball is still the core carry with healdebuffs, singletarget/aoe hybrid preasure.

Am I the only one who were looking forward to the whole Tank moral overhaul from Wargrimnir and Natherul years back, because morales have been changed back and forth enough times to highlight these abilities are no longer a minigame but instead can be sole reason to pick up a careers on a city-slot or they can be an absolute needed must, in the case of M2 Bellow.

[Sundowner]

Meanwhile Order doesn't have a good morale counter and blocker like Mara. SW's barrage needs Vengeful and even then it does 100 morale drain. So that's 200 morale drain every 30s vs 225 every 10s.

I had this document laying around since.. dunno 2 years now and unless someone can pinpoint me overlooking something, i do think a Dragongun WH can actually manage to prevent a Destro none pump class like a mara from ever reaching M2. in a perfect situation with WW from a Swordmaster.
The document shows the natural morale per sec from the WH draining on the target without pump. Eachtime Dragongun is available and used, it adjusts the morale value of the target(s) hit.
https://imgur.com/a/ZUwJp6r

It is a little beside the original point of the topic creator. And while I would wish to ever play in 24v24 on Order as a damagedealer, and not be hit by Bellows before slayers can even go Yellow. We also have to acknowledge that these Moralepump tactics take up one tacticslot, whenever the Bellow is used that is tecnically 10sec uptime and 50seconds downtime where the tactic is not providing anything for the user if we assume the fight is over before next Bellow or M3/M4 comes out.

Order still manages to win against destro when they have these Tank block-pumps. And that raises the question, how badly overtuned would Order's damage output be in case destro didnt have these mitigation tools(?) Dont get me wrong, i HATE being Perma bellowed, but yet still manage to get kills.

Destro have thematically always had the overall advantage on morale minigame. After damage moraledrops were nerfed to have internal barrier reduction within the same second, both realms lost some TTK burst. However the advantage of destro selfpumps and mitigation probably has to stay, looking at how many warband nerfs has hit destro on their advantages over the years.

Bellow being the big thing standing out, maybe moving it back to M3 and swap wih Raze to M2 now that morale bombing is not as potent.
Fun fact all these high rolling engineer and magus damage screenies are probably because they are standing in the back not getting hit by challenges and Bellows like the melee trains and then rocking in less mitigation rolls. However the melee ball is still the core carry with healdebuffs, singletarget/aoe hybrid preasure.

Am I the only one who were looking forward to the whole Tank moral overhaul from Wargrimnir and Natherul years back, because morales have been changed back and forth enough times to highlight these abilities are no longer a minigame but instead can be sole reason to pick up a careers on a city-slot or they can be an absolute needed must, in the case of M2 Bellow.

Isn't dragon gun mirrored to WE?

Order dmg output is not overtuned. it is only slayer that stands out with clear dmg output advantage over destro "mirror" (and bw, but bw meta is kinda gone). But destro already has better cc to counter slayer trains, while having better morale pump and cd decreasers. which raises a lot of questions related to how balance is looked at.

[totaljazz]

The question should be: Why does it need slayers to beat destro?

Or maybe just... brains?

[Bobbiom]

Nerf SW OP!!!!...

Jokes aside.
Having 4 slayers in a wb comp is pretty normal wb setup, it is alot better than 6 BW's that order had to field for the morale meta game back in the day.
Besides destro have 4 choppas but somehow they are not ''crutching'' on them?

The learning curve of this game's teamplay is pretty steep as a newcomer or a casual player which really shows with these one sided fights.
Those who are at the top of the curve will just roflstomp.