Total lack of WH versatility

[Miszczu5647]

You ever thought, it might be the case, that they changed the trees for a reason? Could it be, that they were ... too strong?

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

Mythic nerf to WE/WH put them at the end of digestive system (AW/Torment spam is not a playstyle). But making them "good" requaire baby steps as those classes are easy to become OP. RoR Team did few nice baby steps alredy.

[abezverkhiy]

Nice indeed but looking at the name of topic and using 'steps' terminology I have to say - Shake A Leg! More steps are due

[normanis]

2008 wych> any ather class
look all those armor pentration in carnage tree. 75% + 600 + elixir vs wh what he can doo.

[Sulorie]

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

It was a good change, indeed but I have the impression, some parts of the WE/WH pop sees them in such a dire need, that they require a lot bigger buffs.

E.g. getting back the armor debuff isn't needed, if you are within a group, where someone else can deliver it.

[Rumpel]

You ever thought, it might be the case, that they changed the trees for a reason? Could it be, that they were ... too strong?

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

Mythic nerf to WE/WH put them at the end of digestive system (AW/Torment spam is not a playstyle). But making them "good" requaire baby steps as those classes are easy to become OP. RoR Team did few nice baby steps alredy.

Isn't bleeding edge armor penetration just 50% of base armor penetration? 20%=+10% bleeding edge?

After all I think most we's still spam aw.

[Tabelrel]

You ever thought, it might be the case, that they changed the trees for a reason? Could it be, that they were ... too strong?

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

Mythic nerf to WE/WH put them at the end of digestive system (AW/Torment spam is not a playstyle). But making them "good" requaire baby steps as those classes are easy to become OP. RoR Team did few nice baby steps alredy.

Buffing/unnerfing a class or rebalancing is a hard task and most probably a thankless one sometimes as this forum shows. I think the RoR team has done a great job so far in the vast majority of the classes getting some semblance of balance and making small inceremental steps to get there.

Going back to Sulorie's point about were they nerfed for being too op, maybe and in any area quite possibly. The WE\WH didn't operate in a vacuum as you would have to review them vis-a-vis the other mastery trees at the time and then you start opening a huge can of worms i.e. is this AoR 2008, no its RoR 2020 with its own strategic direction that the devs wish to follow. I'm not suggesting for one moment we implement 2008 abilities wholesale.

I think my drift as I haven't called for any particular buff on any given ability or tactic is what were the WH\WE both originally intended to do when designed. We don't have the original Producers here to ask so you can only summise (I may be wrong of course, so take that into account) from the original trees and how Mythic sold the class at the time. There is enough original content out there where Mythic talk about the WE\WH performing the role of creaping into the backlines and focusing healers. If you look at the WE trees certainly, and the WH tree appears to mirror it, there is a lot of healer counter abilities especially in the suffering tree, either tactics that no longer exist like Healers Bane or abilities like Black Lotus Blade that are a lot more powerful with longer durations. Also, who is the hunter/killer predator of the Healers these days, do they have any? I know WE's\WH's never seriously think of attacking the backlines in a meaningfiul way and even in Scenario's they are left alone a fair degree of the time as a pointless exercise to try and kill them.

I think with the original nerfs you may also have to factor in a couple of things:

1. When were the WE\WH considered op? If you look at the 2009 ve 2008 tree you can see the differences and therefore Mythic were balancing the class not against Sovereign\Warpforged geared players but at the start of the game when people were in greens/blues maybe conqueror gear and people hadn't had 12 years of playing the game but a few months. If Mythic had done small incremental nerfs/buff like the RoR team do instead of sweeping changes they had to do because of their patch cycles both classes may be a little better off today.

2. Mythic were a commercial organisation interested in selling subs and so how influenced were they by the larger player population who didn't play a WE\WH complaining about them and i can remember the nerf the WE posts well enough, they weren't hard to miss.

If you agree that "one" of the roles of the classes was to potently suppress healer activity then i guess you neeed to decide do you want to build it back? Like I said this is RoR not AoR but i think it would give the WE\WH some purpose back and a reason to be included in a WB.

[Miszczu5647]

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

It was a good change, indeed but I have the impression, some parts of the WE/WH pop sees them in such a dire need, that they require a lot bigger buffs.

E.g. getting back the armor debuff isn't needed, if you are within a group, where someone else can deliver it.

Elixir of Shadows/Sanctified Oil. Broad Severing/Sweeping Razor as core. Reworked Frenzied Mayhem (removing one of big dissparities between WE/WH - less motives to argue). Mark of Morathi. Those are good baby steps.

Do we need more. Yes. DO we need main role for WH/WE. Yes. One step at a time. So we won't need to nerf it again.

[Sulorie]

If you agree that "one" of the roles of the classes was to potently suppress healer activity then i guess you neeed to decide do you want to build it back? Like I said this is RoR not AoR but i think it would give the WE\WH some purpose back and a reason to be include in a WB.

They actually have the toolkit to suppress healing with 2 healdebuffs and disrupt buff to avoid the defensive tools of healers. What they lack is the ability to single-handed kill a healer, because this would make healer classes pointless, if they couldn't defend against a single opponent, how they are supposed to heal their group against multiple attackers. To effectively kill opponents, you have to assist each other unless one sides lacks support classes like tank and healer.
For city siege, a single target grp with WE/WH is totally viable.
Fort siege are something you usually only endure to get the invader currency, you just farm it, no matter what. Being in a group or warband as WH/WE, nobody should really care.
In rvr zones, nobody forces you to play in warbands, it's not like it's the only way to play rvr. Afaik ppl, who pick WH/WE, don't have the mindset of playing in a huge rvr zerg and spamming aoe, usually they prefer small scale encounters.

[Miszczu5647]

You ever thought, it might be the case, that they changed the trees for a reason? Could it be, that they were ... too strong?

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

Mythic nerf to WE/WH put them at the end of digestive system (AW/Torment spam is not a playstyle). But making them "good" requaire baby steps as those classes are easy to become OP. RoR Team did few nice baby steps alredy.

Isn't bleeding edge armor penetration just 50% of base armor penetration? 20%=+10% bleeding edge?

After all I think most we's still spam aw.

https://imgur.com/a/VgeqMgS

My statistics from Enemy since 8th November.

[Rumpel]

Thats why we need use past with caution. Once more time look what Torque did with Bleedind Edge. It is higher in tree and have weaker effect than original Sharpened Edge. Still very effective tactic.

Mythic nerf to WE/WH put them at the end of digestive system (AW/Torment spam is not a playstyle). But making them "good" requaire baby steps as those classes are easy to become OP. RoR Team did few nice baby steps alredy.

Isn't bleeding edge armor penetration just 50% of base armor penetration? 20%=+10% bleeding edge?

After all I think most we's still spam aw.

https://imgur.com/a/VgeqMgS

My statistics from Enemy since 8th November.

So ra all in all got mitigated only for 23%?! Seems a huge difference to what I wrote and often is said in the forum.