Recent Topics

Ads

Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Let's talk about... everything else
User avatar
hammerhead
Posts: 308

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#51 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:27 pm

Fort are fine. Forts are good! So git gud!

Image
(\|)o0(|/)

Ads
User avatar
zij83
Posts: 129

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#52 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:29 pm

dalen wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:46 pm There's already a coming change in next patch that will help regarding this:

[Fortresses]

The time left on forts will start ticking down faster if certain conditions are met:
- It is stage 2
- There is less than 30 minutes left of the fort (15 minutes has passed in the stage)
- The door health is 100%
- The defenders have held all five flags for at least two minutes.

If all the above conditions are met, the time left will start ticking down five times faster.
Is anything being looked at to help balance the problem destro has pushing/defending forts? The only reason we currently do double forts is to split the defenders because we have a very hard time making the push due to the overwhelming amount of aoe and slayers popping rampage when the tanks run in the door and melting even the best geared tanks like hot butter. This is currently the only reason we have a somewhat decent win rate on forts as you can see we push about double the amount of forts Order does because we typically have to push 2 to get 1. You can also see this play out when defending since it's not possible to split them for that they have a 94% win rate (data is public, link below) when attacking. When they push slayers melt tanks and dps while their ranged bombards us with an amount of aoe that we cannot possibly dish out (recently we've been bringing more magus, but its still not as effective) when pushing forts.

Link to fort data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

User avatar
zij83
Posts: 129

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#53 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:34 pm

carthagerising wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:58 pm
I think that once a person takes a fort reservation, they should be locked there until the fort ends one way or the other. getting multiple forts on one character in a short window of time needs to be prevented, unless they have actually ended.

If this change were implemented you would literally have destro not doing forts. The double push is a strategy used in order to thin the number of order so we don't have to deal with the overwhelming amount of aoe bombarding us as we build m4s and large number of stunties ignoring all of our block and parry as we make the push. Lock a player into content and the player will just log off and get on another character, or play another game.

emiliorv
Suspended
Posts: 1295

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#54 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:35 pm

CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:56 pm
Spoiler:
emiliorv wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:39 pm
CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:33 pm
Spoiler:
Because destro never even makes it to the 2nd fort, or even if they do, they lose and log off. My issue is that it blows up the campaign, everyone logs off, and then zones have 20 ppl each in them and its no fun.
Dont defend and let attackers win. problem solved.

You cant win fort and stop campaign and at same time pretend that campaign keep going...
Yeah, I'm not going to get banned for throwing. Or if you are saying just not play and afk in Altorf, how can a game be designed where not playing it is the optimal choice?
Sorry, about game desing i cant help you, but the reality is what it is.

User avatar
zij83
Posts: 129

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#55 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:38 pm

CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:39 pm
emiliorv wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:52 am
CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:17 am while the original defenders are still occupied at the 1st fort.
Why you stay defending a empty fort?? Just leave and go to def the second one.
Because when this is happening destro has like a 200 person population advantage, the people that got into the first fort aren't needed to zerg the 2nd zone. All they are doing is insuring that the first fort is a loss. The fort shouldn't be "empty" to begin with.

Order doesn't even have to abandon any rewards because they know that it will take longer to open the 2nd fort than it will for the clock to expire on the now empty fort. So if by the time dest gets to the 2nd fort, those same Order are there, why would destro fair any better the 2nd time/why not just try to actually win the 1st fort?

This strategy is not a real double push. A doublt fort needs the Defenders to have two forts open at the SAME time.
The second one starts shortly after the first. There's a reason for this, but one typically does not share strategy with the enemy.

User avatar
zij83
Posts: 129

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#56 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:40 pm

horuson wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:14 pm Ditching mid siege isnt about effectiveness imo, like other destros told here

When you dont have FMJ or any organized wb in a fort, pretty much everyone with some knowledge knows it's already doomed, so you either leave instant or try one push and then leave for the next fort or keep

We cant win fort when 80% of destros in fort are not in 2/2/2, 50% of them not even using pots, most of tanks not respecing for forts, players watching tv in their open wb without any lead... And you know what most do after losing ? blaming balance lol they are not even trying to carry themself in the first place, randoms are not tryharding fort, they dont want to join 2/2/2 wbs... so once you understood that and you notice there isnt FMJ or any god wb, you leech your 2inv and leave
FMJ is great and I love them, but I have no idea why people keep pushing this narrative that destro can't do anything if they aren't on. Plenty happens when large FMJ presence isn't on.

User avatar
Aethilmar
Posts: 636

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#57 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:44 pm

As mentioned above, why would a rational person stay and fight in a lost cause when the rewards for participating don't justify the effort?

For example last night (NA) when the Destro decided to to roll Order to get to 5 start Altdorf I defended one fort where we got rolled but still did well enough to get 2 invader. Second fort we got rolled harder and got nothing. That felt bad man even for me.

But I'm just stupid enough to fight b/c I like the fights. However, you need to reward "normal" players with something for at least providing willing targets for the better organized side. PvP requires (at least) two consensual parties and if you don't provide the right incentives for "the loser" then they will just go do something else and nobody gets to play.

And that has nothing to do with "mental toughness" or what have you. That is completely rational behavior. It is idiots like me who actively fight on underdog side that are not right in the head and keep propping up a broken system.

User avatar
zij83
Posts: 129

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#58 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:46 pm

Dondabon wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:23 pm
dalen wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:46 pm There's already a coming change in next patch that will help regarding this:

[Fortresses]

The time left on forts will start ticking down faster if certain conditions are met:
- It is stage 2
- There is less than 30 minutes left of the fort (15 minutes has passed in the stage)
- The door health is 100%
- The defenders have held all five flags for at least two minutes.

If all the above conditions are met, the time left will start ticking down five times faster.
I don't think this will help a lot, as it is not designed to solve root of the issue, but consequence. The real issue is why people are abandoning fort in the first place. And I feel you are overestimating how much of this is up to strategy. It might have started that way, but now people are leaving cos there is no incentive to stay. As someone already mentioned it is a boring content for most of the people, where rewards in most cases are same if you stay for full 45min duration, or if you leave after 15-20min.

@Carthage I agree with some of the previous comments, I don't think forcing people to stay would solve anything. People would just stay afk instead of leaving it.

Here is how I see some potential issues and suggestions:
1) Recent change of having to keep BOs in order for them to be efficient is right direction, but I think it needs to go a step forward. Now you are forcing attackers not to zerg and to defend what they capture, but there is nothing preventing defenders to go as huge blob and just cap everything around, in the circle. Is it possible to change this further, so that if defender takes BO back, but doesn't keep control for at least 30 sec (might need to be adjusted) timer for attacker doesn't reset? So, for example if Attacker keeps BO for 45sec, then Defenders cap it back and lose it after 15sec timer would continue on 45sec for Attacker? This would also incentivize defenders to fight on BOs as well, instead of zerging.
2) Organized guilds hate forts, at least on Destro side. It is not uncommon for them to make decision even before fort starts that they will not go in, if there are any open zones to continue fighting. Reason is that they want somewhat interesting and fair fights, that forts cannot provide. Further issue here is that, in most cases, those WBs will have most contribution, so that is straight away 24ppl less in fort that will be filled with pugs, reducing any chance of victory for attackers. Possible solution would be to ask people would they like to participate in fort, based on contribution, instead of giving it straight away. This way those players can press no, and reservations would be passed to next 24 ppl with highest contribution. Not ideal, but I think its slightly better and I don't see solution where you would force those guilds to participate (neither you should). Is this possible?
3) Rewards for losing side are very bad, as it's impossible for people to get any bags. When you add destro mentality of "we will lose this 99%, there is no FMJ to push this for us, I might as well just leave" it leads to people leaving after 20min. This could be solved with adding some bags for both sides as reward. This way people who stay know they are fighting for something, even if they lose. If you think gold bags would be too much, you can make similar reward system as in cities now - blue bag is highest you can get if you lose.
4) Forts are very advantageous for defending side. I never saw that side that had equal number of organized 2-2-2 WBs lost, while they are defending. This is applicable for both Destro and Order, but Order tends to be more invested more into forts, so it can be better and more frequently seen there. No real solution here :(
5) Stage 3 is very boring to participate in, as there is almost no real strategy. Pop m4, wiggle through the door, yell at people to do the same and hope that you have better gear and do more dmg/healing if you attack. If you defend pop m4, drop everything on the door and hope you have more dmg/healing. New change with flying on top of the keep is more meme than something useful, but it could work with some changes? Maybe add that those birds are taking 3-6 people at once and they all get you at the same place, but increase cd? This way you would get 12-24 man simultaneously behind defenders and hope that they are good enough to hold off till reinforcements come/to hold some kind of damage on backline.

Or, if nothing works just admit defeat and do the same it was done on live - remove forts for good, have scheduled cities once per day/2days for both time zones and provide invader medals this way as well. At least people would know when cities will happen, so hopefully we would have more organized groups and good fights there.

P.S. sorry about this huge post, just realized how long it is once I posted it :(
Give this man the Nobel Warhammer Prize. +1 to everything here.

Ads
User avatar
StrongUn
Posts: 294

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#59 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:49 pm

Forts should have a minimum rank and gear req

Maybe min rank 40 and conq/vanq gear like ranked scenarios
Image

User avatar
zij83
Posts: 129

Re: Ditching Forts Mid-Siege

Post#60 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:50 pm

duvalx wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:49 pm Destro have had it far to easy for far to long...
This is pure comedy gold sir.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests