Brust potential of Mara comapred to order mdps

[Foofmonger]

mara on single target need .

Thunderous blow and deadly clutch to revert the 2017 nerfs ( They made sense at the time t2/t3 time) . After this , mara is perfect

Yep, agreed.

[M0rw47h]

There actualy could be done much more things to Marauder as class is wasting so much design potential. For example, removing "stance requirement", but adding side effects to abilities based on which stance Marauder is (like being Vengeful gives bonuses in case of SW). Imagine Demolition/Wrecking Ball dealing more damage while in Brutality and/or applying bleeds or other debuffs while in Savagery.

[Sundowner]

Seems you did not fully get what I am saying. I am not saying mara should get st buff only when wl gets aoe buff, this was to show that every hero lacks something and should not be overtuned to do everything.

On what mara tree is supposed to do- it only exist in your imagionation (or memory from what mara was), maybe it is not supposed to have strong debuffs and ST damage?

On qualitive analysis- again, you are taking mara as if it is detached from other 23 classes and has independent context. Simply put, no. When there is 24 classes divided into two factions, every heroes abilities influences synergies and balance of the sides.

Therefore my argument remains, if data shows that mara's st damage is underperforming in comparison to other mdps classes it should be fixes. if it is even (or deviation is non-significant) there is no reason to buff mara "because ST tree is supposed to do x".

and the last, if WL and SW have better burst and ST damage than mara, maybe ask yourself, why is that, maybe because their aoe impact is subpar in comparison to mara's? I am not saying that his is perfect or should be this way, but balancing factions in the fashion that makes all classes viable for all roles simply cannot be done with RORs class designs (especially in sw/wl and mara/sh pairings)

[Foofmonger]

Seems you did not fully get what I am saying. I am not saying mara should get st buff only when wl gets aoe buff, this was to show that every hero lacks something and should not be overtuned to do everything.

I understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you its nonsense. I've already explained why, and you seem incapable of understanding the points I've made. I'm not going to repeat myself.

"It only exists in my imagine". What a farce. Just because you lack knowledge and are ignorant does not mean that others are. No, it exists as a design theory from 2008. Sorry you don't have any clue of what you are speaking about.

Your arguments are equally as bad as the OPs of this thread. You speak in general platitudes, with no examples, and no deep understanding of what you speak towards. Yes, the classes in the game need to be balanced in comparison to each other, all of them (as well as archetype balance and mirror balance if you want to drill down into the nuance), thanks for the note on "balance 101", the only thing you are doing is stating the obvious premise of "how balance works".

I'm explaining to you, that in comparison to the other classes in the game, and the design theory for the path, that IT IS NOT BALANCED. Your only "point" is that "durrr balance is hawddd and you have to factor in many things". No ****.

[Foofmonger]

There actualy could be done much more things to Marauder as class is wasting so much design potential. For example, removing "stance requirement", but adding side effects to abilities based on which stance Marauder is (like being Vengeful gives bonuses in case of SW). Imagine Demolition/Wrecking Ball dealing more damage while in Brutality and/or applying bleeds or other debuffs while in Savagery.

I mean, that goes for the whole game! Auras are another great example. Unfortunately, I think the amount of work needed to rework every class, combined with the size of the dev team, combined with issues in the past of trying to push through massive reworks, makes this an extremely unlikely/not practical ideal.

Would be super cool, and are good ideas, but just not a realistic thing that's gonna happen.

Much easier to just fix Thunderous Blows and call it a day.

[Sundowner]

Seems you did not fully get what I am saying. I am not saying mara should get st buff only when wl gets aoe buff, this was to show that every hero lacks something and should not be overtuned to do everything.

I understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you its nonsense. I've already explained why, and you seem incapable of understanding the points I've made. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Okay, so here I repeat myself again- if data shows that mara's st potential is underperforming in comparison to other mdps, it should be buffed, if not, there is no need for buff (because there is no such thing that "it is supposed to do so, or it is supposed to be stronger"). You agree with me on that?

[Foofmonger]

Seems you did not fully get what I am saying. I am not saying mara should get st buff only when wl gets aoe buff, this was to show that every hero lacks something and should not be overtuned to do everything.

I understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you its nonsense. I've already explained why, and you seem incapable of understanding the points I've made. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Okay, so here I repeat myself again- if data shows that mara's st potential is underperforming in comparison to other mdps, it should be buffed, if not, there is no need for buff (because there is no such thing that "it is supposed to do so, or it is supposed to be stronger"). You agree with me on that?

Do I agree that only a quantitative analysis is needed with no corresponding qualitative analysis?

Absolutely not. I make good money fixing that mentality in the tech industry. Data needs to be interpreted to be useful, and data with no qualitative analysis is only marginally useful. Do you design insights gathered from massive amounts of data? Your concept of "data" is like some mythical source of truth that solves all problems, and shows you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how data is used, interpreted, and consumed by human beings.

Again, let me repeat myself. "I understand what you are saying, and you are wrong, I've already explained to you, in great detail, how and why you are wrong, and I'm not going to explain again."

Bye bye. All classes in this game should as a design ideal, have 3 functional mastery paths that serve their purposes. If they do not, then they have balance issues. This is not a "Marauder" only concept, as I already explained to you about Guardian WL, and it applies to every single class in this game. This thread however, is about Marauders.

[Sundowner]

I understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you its nonsense. I've already explained why, and you seem incapable of understanding the points I've made. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Okay, so here I repeat myself again- if data shows that mara's st potential is underperforming in comparison to other mdps, it should be buffed, if not, there is no need for buff (because there is no such thing that "it is supposed to do so, or it is supposed to be stronger"). You agree with me on that?

Do I agree that only a quantitative analysis is needed with no corresponding qualitative analysis?

Absolutely not. I make good money fixing that mentality in the tech industry. Data needs to be interpreted to be useful, and data with no qualitative analysis is only marginally useful.

Again, let me repeat myself. "I understand what you are saying, and you are wrong, I've already explained to you, in great detail, how and why you are wrong, and I'm not going to explain again."

Bye bye.

So, if I understand your logic, even if Mara's ST potential is not underperforming we should buff it. Can I ask why? Because it is supposed to be strong?

[Foofmonger]

Okay, so here I repeat myself again- if data shows that mara's st potential is underperforming in comparison to other mdps, it should be buffed, if not, there is no need for buff (because there is no such thing that "it is supposed to do so, or it is supposed to be stronger"). You agree with me on that?

Do I agree that only a quantitative analysis is needed with no corresponding qualitative analysis?

Absolutely not. I make good money fixing that mentality in the tech industry. Data needs to be interpreted to be useful, and data with no qualitative analysis is only marginally useful.

Again, let me repeat myself. "I understand what you are saying, and you are wrong, I've already explained to you, in great detail, how and why you are wrong, and I'm not going to explain again."

Bye bye.

So, if I understand your logic, even if Mara's ST potential is not underperforming we should buff it. Can I ask why? Because it is supposed to be strong?

The concept of "Mara ST potential" is a farce. What is the "ST potential"? Are you talking about the Brutality spec? Do you think that mastery paths in this game don't exist or something?

If a Brut/Monstro mara's ST potential is fine (and it is), it does not equate to a Brut/Sav mara's ST potential being fine. Your level of understanding of nuance is severely lacking.

This is exactly why a qualitative analysis is needed. You are conflating multiple things and getting confused.

Is the ST potential of a spec that has solid ST damage, solid AoE damage, and some decent AoE utility good? Yes it is.

Is the ST potential of a spec that has solid ST damage, no aoe damage, no CC, no aoe utility, and shitty ST debuffs good? No it isn't.

You cannot treat a class like it has 1 spec. C'mon now, it's just super lazy. This is the summation of your argument: "If a class has 1 good spec, they don't need to have more den dat cuz me think balance work simple". To use your own logic "Warrior Priests don't need to be able to do DPS or have shield heal specs because they can heal good in healing spec".

Cool story bro. I've had more interesting conversations with my cat.

[Sundowner]

Do I agree that only a quantitative analysis is needed with no corresponding qualitative analysis?

Absolutely not. I make good money fixing that mentality in the tech industry. Data needs to be interpreted to be useful, and data with no qualitative analysis is only marginally useful.

Again, let me repeat myself. "I understand what you are saying, and you are wrong, I've already explained to you, in great detail, how and why you are wrong, and I'm not going to explain again."

Bye bye.

So, if I understand your logic, even if Mara's ST potential is not underperforming we should buff it. Can I ask why? Because it is supposed to be strong?

The concept of "Mara ST potential" is a farce. What is the "ST potential"? Are you talking about the Brutality spec? Do you think that mastery paths in this game don't exist or something?

If a Brut/Monstro mara's ST potential is fine (and it is), it does not equate to a Brut/Sav mara's ST potential being fine. Your level of understanding of nuance is severely lacking.

This is exactly why a qualitative analysis is needed. You are conflating multiple things and getting confused.

Is the ST potential of a spec that has solid ST damage, solid AoE damage, and some decent AoE utility good? Yes it is.

Is the ST potential of a spec that has solid ST damage, no aoe damage, no CC, no aoe utility, and shitty ST debuffs good? No it isn't.

You cannot treat a class like it has 1 spec. C'mon now, it's just super lazy. This is the summation of your argument: "If a class has 1 good spec, they don't need to have more den dat cuz me think balance work simple". To use your own logic "Warrior Priests don't need to be able to do DPS or have shield heal specs because they can heal good in healing spec".

Cool story bro. I've had more interesting conversations with my cat.

Firstly, when I say ST potential I mean the best setup of stats/mastery trees/tactics there is (sorry if I did not make that clear earlier).

And again about qualitive analysis. We have other mdps, mara does not exist separately in the game, something should be buffed when it is underperforming in comparison to other classes why it is hard to understand? Here is plan, take mara in both brut/monstro and brut/sava specs, compare ST damage with other mdps (also make qualitive adjustments such as survibility, mobility, etc.) compare results. if both builds are underperforming, there is need for buff, if one is on level of other mdps (medial, of course), then this is viable build in current state of the balance and ST should be played that way. Giving further buffs in this case will only make mara overtuned in comparison to other mdps.

Yes this is hard, time-consuming and tedious task, but balance changes should be done this way, not only theorizing about what it should be. and ST potential does not mean only damage, it means st debuffs too.

Also don't forget that its team-game, so you should compare other classes abilities too. You can't take one hero and make changes disregarding tanks/other mdps/healers which could have abilities which fill in gaps.

To end, I am not antagonizing you or destro side, I believe in balance and if something is underperforming it should be buffed, but arguments should be based on tangible data not assumptions and vision of the several players out of thousands.

Also I never insulted you or called you lazy, just tried to present my arguments. have a nice day