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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: For the game developers team

Post#31 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:24 pm

Gurf wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:18 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:50 pm
I'm in them too on both sides, and I know who is swapping from one realm to another.

Listen to what I'm telling you. "The destro city groups are the Order ORvR fort pushing groups". They aren't different people.

But yes, I think that's a reasonable take. The changes have had an impact and we will have to see how everything plays out. I'm not trying to say "X needs to be nerfed or buffed", just making sure we all understand that the combat system has gone through some BIG changes and we will have to see how the dust settles and what other changes may be needed.

My own personal feelings on the subject at the moment are: The number 1 class that has benefitted from the current changes and is now frankly just overtuned is the Slayer. That being said, I don't yet feel confident enough to say that this IS definitely the problem or that there should be changes. Just giving you a preview of what I'm experiencing and what's bubbling up in my mind (from both and Order and Destro perspective).

Remember, for all those people saying "well high RR Marauders came out and said something was overtuned". Yes we did and I was one of the main people saying this. I am trying to balance the game, even if it means nerfing my own classes. I sincerely wish people of various classes on both sides start taking balance more objectively and seriously and not try to just be selfish in "me want buffs that benefit me and me want nerfs tha thurt you" simplistic logic.
Why does it benefit the Slayer more than any other class? I thought it was a change to Dots so classes like Engi, Magus etc would benefit the most

Why does it benefit the Slayer more than the Choppa? I did a City yesterday and that Choppa Ummuruk (sp?) was doing absolutely insane damage that both a WP and RP combined couldn't heal through, he more or less single handedly minced our whole instance doing more damage than 2/3rds of the rest of his Destro warband combined
EDIT: This post is wrong. This change has already been hotfixed. My argument below is no longer relevant, but it does apply to the last week before this latest patch.

Sure I'm happy to help explain.

1. There are multiple changes. The DoT change is one of them, but the real damage increase change is about how toughness is calculated in the combat formulas. I went into this above, but basically, % damage increases (outgoing from a target), are much stronger than they used to be. This means that classes that have high % damage increases (such as Slayers and Choppas, who get 50% from being beserk and then an additional 15% from flanking), gain more from this change than classes that have low amounts of % damage increases.

2. The reason that it benefits Slayers more than any other class. Is because Slayers have natural high damage with ID (higher than Choppas), they have the most % damage modifiers available on MDPS classes (same w/Choppa), and they have Rampage, which allows them to apply their high damage without having it avoided. That being said, Choppa's will also benefit more than any other Destro MDPS class as well. So the potential issues here are with both the Slayer and the Choppa. It's just that the main differences between Slayer and Choppa, are in that the Slayer does more raw damage (and doesn't deal with avoidance), while the Choppa has higher levels of CC and utlity. Damage was buffed, not CC and utlity, so the Slayers natural damage advantage leads to more of an issue. That being said, it's entirely possible that both Slayer/Choppa will both have very high damage increases as a result of the combat formula changes.

Like I said earlier, I'm not calling for nerfs/buffs or anything, just sharing some thoughts on what I'm experiencing. As a result of this patch, damage % increases have become king for DPS classes and how scaling works, so those classes who have more of these will be outperforming/pacing the ones that don't. So this can cause potential balance issues, as not all classes benefitted from the combat formula changes equally. Classes that can stack damage modifiers will see small DPS increases, those that can stack high damage modifiers will see large DPS increases. This is a massive change to the game system and will have implications for balance as a whole throughout all classes and factions.

Let me give you a hypothetical example (just random values/assumptions)

Let's say WLs were doing 80% of the AoE damage Slayers were doing pre-patch.
Now, because of the scaling works (Slayer damage went up faster than WL damage), the WL is doing 70% of the damage Slayers were doing pre-patch. (Note: This also applies to Choppa/Destro)

What this does is create a "stacking problem", a la what we saw with Marauders, where the best comps are now "stack as many Slayers/Choppas as possible because they do so much more damage than the other MDPS options". We're seeing Order groups run 5-6-7 slayer stacks and winning pretty easily, Destro running more Choppa groups for the same reason, etc... It's going to cause the same issues we've seen in the past, namely "making less class choices viable in comparison". This is already happening, and I expect it to continue. Now, there will be less spots in organized wbs for other DPS classes (even on your same realm) because groups are going to start picking up more and more Choppas and Slayers because of how good their damage is at the moment in comparison to other classes.

I want to be clear, the issue here is not a "Destro vs Order" issue, potentially, it's a "why bring other classes when you can stack Slayers/Choppas" issue. This has implications for all the players who play other DPS classes that might now be seen as "unoptimal" in comparison to just stacking more Slayers/Choppas.

I want to leave people with this: One of the major arguments being made about Marauder damage (from an Order perspective) is that any class you are stacking 5-6+ of in cities is "overtuned". Now, I wasn't a huge fan of this argument, but for anyone who was making this argument, is it your idea of balance that instead of stacking 5-6 Marauders balance is stacking 5-6 Choppas or Slayers instead? It sounds like we're just substituting one issue for the exact same issue with another class, and a hypocritical fashion. I don't know how anyone with a straight face can make the argument that Mara's should have been nerfed because they were too effective and being stacked, and then go say "well stacking 6 Slayers or Choppas is fine and balanced. That sounds like a big old pile of steaming bullshit to me.

(Note: I'm still happy with Mara/WL damage as it sits, I think those nerfs/changes were correct and balanced and the devs made the right choice in giving WL/Mara AoE damage parity).
Last edited by Foofmonger on Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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storm
Posts: 60

Re: For the game developers team

Post#32 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:22 pm

Time to Kill Is now much to high, it is impossible to heal through. I will not be playing healer with these changes, I don't think many others will either.

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Ramlaen
Posts: 201

Re: For the game developers team

Post#33 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:25 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:19 pm4. The real issue we're seeing now are combat formula changes and how they impact the game. With the absorb and toughness formula changes, effective damage is much higher this patch across the board, primarily because of the toughness change (less so the absorbs). I will explain further:

What changed in the patch is this: Toughness mitigation used to be calculated prior to damage buffs (such as Choppa/Slayer mechanics, Flanking tactic, etc...), however this order has been switched. What this means is before the patch, lets say you had 1000 str and were hitting a 500 toughness target. Your damage would get reduced by the 500 toughness, and then be multipled by your damage modifiers. Now, your damage gets multipled by your damage modifiers, and then reduced by toughness. What this means is two things:

1. Toughness is way worse on this server than it was pre-patch.
2. % stacking damage bonuses are MUCH stronger than they used to be
This is how it was last week, toughness is back to being calculated before % mod.
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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: For the game developers team

Post#34 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:34 pm

Ramlaen wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:25 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:19 pm4. The real issue we're seeing now are combat formula changes and how they impact the game. With the absorb and toughness formula changes, effective damage is much higher this patch across the board, primarily because of the toughness change (less so the absorbs). I will explain further:

What changed in the patch is this: Toughness mitigation used to be calculated prior to damage buffs (such as Choppa/Slayer mechanics, Flanking tactic, etc...), however this order has been switched. What this means is before the patch, lets say you had 1000 str and were hitting a 500 toughness target. Your damage would get reduced by the 500 toughness, and then be multipled by your damage modifiers. Now, your damage gets multipled by your damage modifiers, and then reduced by toughness. What this means is two things:

1. Toughness is way worse on this server than it was pre-patch.
2. % stacking damage bonuses are MUCH stronger than they used to be
This is how it was last week, toughness is back to being calculated before % mod.
Yea looks like you may be right and I'm talking about pre-patch yesterday. Whoops, looks like the issue is already fixed.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: For the game developers team

Post#35 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:35 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:19 pm 4. The real issue we're seeing now are combat formula changes and how they impact the game. With the absorb and toughness formula changes, effective damage is much higher this patch across the board, primarily because of the toughness change (less so the absorbs). I will explain further:

What changed in the patch is this: Toughness mitigation used to be calculated prior to damage buffs (such as Choppa/Slayer mechanics, Flanking tactic, etc...), however this order has been switched. What this means is before the patch, lets say you had 1000 str and were hitting a 500 toughness target. Your damage would get reduced by the 500 toughness, and then be multipled by your damage modifiers. Now, your damage gets multipled by your damage modifiers, and then reduced by toughness. What this means is two things:

1. Toughness is way worse on this server than it was pre-patch.
2. % stacking damage bonuses are MUCH stronger than they used to be.
As far as I understand this was reversed. As posted by Dalen (viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40325 here), the dmg order is this:

Damage + Weapon DPS + Stat Contribution -> Toughness mitigation -> Damage multipliers -> Absorb -> Crit -> Armor/Resist -> Guard

Absorb however is lot less effective on targets with low toughness, affecting dok's self absorb tactic and group absorb, zealot's Tzeentch's Grip absorb proc on heal and ability absorb (+absorb ritual if they were using it), sham's castable absorb, as well as all healers M3 melee absorb. Same for order side healers with absorb.

Also see last hotfix:

[Combat Formulas]

- Fixed an issue where procs where scaling with outgoing damage multipliers, they now only scale with incoming damage multiplier

This affected several slayer and bw abilities (+choppa/sorc ones). Edit: reading discord, also Napalm/Mist.
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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: For the game developers team

Post#36 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:35 pm

Zxul wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:35 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:19 pm 4. The real issue we're seeing now are combat formula changes and how they impact the game. With the absorb and toughness formula changes, effective damage is much higher this patch across the board, primarily because of the toughness change (less so the absorbs). I will explain further:

What changed in the patch is this: Toughness mitigation used to be calculated prior to damage buffs (such as Choppa/Slayer mechanics, Flanking tactic, etc...), however this order has been switched. What this means is before the patch, lets say you had 1000 str and were hitting a 500 toughness target. Your damage would get reduced by the 500 toughness, and then be multipled by your damage modifiers. Now, your damage gets multipled by your damage modifiers, and then reduced by toughness. What this means is two things:

1. Toughness is way worse on this server than it was pre-patch.
2. % stacking damage bonuses are MUCH stronger than they used to be.
As far as I understand this was reversed. As posted by Dalen (viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40325 here), the dmg order is this:

Damage + Weapon DPS + Stat Contribution -> Toughness mitigation -> Damage multipliers -> Absorb -> Crit -> Armor/Resist -> Guard

Absorb however is lot less effective on targets with low toughness, affecting dok's self absorb tactic and group absorb, zealot's Tzeentch's Grip absorb proc on heal and ability absorb (+absorb ritual if they were using it), sham's castable absorb, as well as all healers M3 melee absorb. Same for order side healers with absorb.

Also see last hotfix:

[Combat Formulas]

- Fixed an issue where procs where scaling with outgoing damage multipliers, they now only scale with incoming damage multiplier

This affected several slayer and bw abilities (+choppa/sorc ones). Edit: reading discord, also Napalm/Mist.
Great news and thanks for the update. Looks like there were some bugs that are being ironed out. My long rants are why those bugs are not good, so glad to see they are being taken care of.

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Acidic
Posts: 2045
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Re: For the game developers team

Post#37 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:01 pm

Currently feel the game with the new formula got dumbed down to favor dps , healer /tank proper setup and grouping reduced to just zerg and aoe. Not my idea of fun at the moment

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Rydiak
Posts: 770

Re: For the game developers team

Post#38 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:06 pm

Acidic wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:01 pm Currently feel the game with the new formula got dumbed down to favor dps , healer /tank proper setup and grouping reduced to just zerg and aoe. Not my idea of fun at the moment
Which is interesting, because the change did the complete opposite. Not only was Toughness moved back earlier into the formula, which means it has a larger impact on modifying the damage before it gets multiplied by bonuses, but the toughness cap was also removed. I guess the patch was a success then.
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Acidic
Posts: 2045
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Re: For the game developers team

Post#39 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:08 pm

Rydiak wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:06 pm
Acidic wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:01 pm Currently feel the game with the new formula got dumbed down to favor dps , healer /tank proper setup and grouping reduced to just zerg and aoe. Not my idea of fun at the moment
Which is interesting, because the change did the complete opposite. Not only was Toughness moved back earlier into the formula, which means it has a larger impact on modifying the damage before it gets multiplied by bonuses, but the toughness cap was also removed. I guess the patch was a success then.
Maybe just tired of meeting slayers running rampage, can have that effect on a Destro tank
Yes succes, ppl don’t seem to want to play Destro, but whatever . Order troll and such did thier job well convincing devs that city should be 50/50 win rate when one side does not even try forming groups

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Rydiak
Posts: 770

Re: For the game developers team

Post#40 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:15 pm

Acidic wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:08 pm
Rydiak wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:06 pm
Acidic wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:01 pm Currently feel the game with the new formula got dumbed down to favor dps , healer /tank proper setup and grouping reduced to just zerg and aoe. Not my idea of fun at the moment
Which is interesting, because the change did the complete opposite. Not only was Toughness moved back earlier into the formula, which means it has a larger impact on modifying the damage before it gets multiplied by bonuses, but the toughness cap was also removed. I guess the patch was a success then.
Maybe just tired of meeting slayers running rampage, can have that effect on a Destro tank
Yes succes, ppl don’t seem to want to play Destro, but whatever . Order troll and such did thier job well convincing devs that city should be 50/50 win rate when one side does not even try forming groups
You should try organizing better. That sounds like a player issue. Maybe run 2/2/2 warbands in city?
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