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City Winner History?

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Arbich
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#361 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:27 pm

Wam wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:59 pm
Arbich wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:25 am
Wam wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:11 am
Destro been nerfed hard in the last year... was killing destro on order before they was nerfed... sorry to burst bubble about destro being OP. Please try again the real reason why order is slacking in cities. (class/archtype distrubution mixed in with some l2p issues and lack of tactics make it a uphill battle for order which is nothing to do with class balance :!: :lol: :oops: ) There's a couple different ways order can build a competitive warband but the foundations for each will be similar.
Yes, captain obvious. Organized Warbands win most of their cities, no matter if order or destro.
Thing is, most cities don't have this highly organized warbands, so their impact is negligible. But saying that SH isn't superior to SW in a medium/low organized environment (which is the case in most of the cities I would say) and therefor give destro +1 viable class for city is mind-boggling.
Not every SH is TEEFZ or JUKRI Level :lol: ... and I would compare MSH to WL if you talking about low / med level level if you think something with a pounce is OP for easier assist

There is alot of bad MSH and very overated class

There is a few "high end" SW players who play their class and contribute more than the majority of msh even with SW being in experiment phase where tweaking was being done. Does rsw need some love sure, so does rsh eventually.

I think the issue is more the sheer amount of Engi > magus ... then you have another rdps (sw) and ofc BW is a core choice... most people dont respec build for cities anyways too... so if your bring a pug/uncordinated range setup (which doesnt know how to assist) a melee train from destro is more likely to assist naturally... and city is sc based and map design is more in melee's favour. That is where you see slight edge to destro in "mid/low" as ranged requires way more co-ordination than rng pug. (Destro dont forget to bring tanks either)

Sometimes order win a city, sometimes the number is close just destro have more premades... if things was "imbalanced" as some people cry order would never win, their best premades would never win... Destro already been nerfed, order just cant be arsed to organise itself then cry every time... i know organising can be annoying but some people don't even try then cry foul about balance without having a clue.
Then you compare SW to marauder? The argument was about number of viable classes. You can compare BO to WP for this, doesn't matter for the argument.

The argument is that destro can put up decent city warbands with low effort, order can't. One of the reasons is class balance (the arguments you brought up like class distribution has an effect also).

One thing I would like to know what was the heavy nerf that especially affected destro?
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wonshot
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#362 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:21 pm

Arbich wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:27 pm One thing I would like to know what was the heavy nerf that especially affected destro?
- Zealot and Runepriest aoe healdebuff removed (order has more raw healing so destro benefitted the most from this tool)
- Cooldown decreasers got nerfed, it hit meatballs and slayers the same kinda.
- Zealots winds of insanity got "rightfully" given some counterplay, still works but you can stop it now. This ability works either as a displacement tool or resetting tool to stop the order tempo or snowballing.
- Mara lost their morale drain, and the morale blocker is still not working (?) Now order tanks can actually get pass M1 in narrow fights.
- More than anything, morales got reduced so the bigger of a morale drop you do the less of an impact the number has. This again hit both sides but destro had arguebly stronger M2 class drops combined with blackorc M3 selfpump, Meatball m4 selfpump, zealot Windblock m4 50%healdebuff selfpump.

Order on paper, is in the best spot to fight minmaxed, that it has been in about a year or so.

Order strengths for warband warfare:
- Raw healing from BW, slayer, wl.
- Raw healing from wp, rp, knight
- Archmage arguebly with its utility but noone seems to be able to pull it off.

Destro strenghts for warband warfare
- Supperior displacements and crowdcontrol (magus no pull delay, mara aoe knockdown, zealot winds no immunity, meatball Outta my way no immunity)
- Supperior morale-game. Selfpumps, grouppumps, Aoe silences on BO + Zealot vs 50%chance to break root on knight.
- Slightly more versatile comps with more synergy.

Based on that, the nerfs listed above clearly hit destro harder on those classes that got affected on both realms :)
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Meliannia
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#363 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:07 pm

this is not fun anymore.
I have some suggestions below, as i think anyone who complains needs to have some suggestions or solutions to at least show they've considered the issue and how to improve the problems if possible, and are not just venting a rant which gms ignore.,
i started the game with 6 friends we all made Order, after 6 months there is only me still here, 5 of my friends quit to Destro and are loving it, one quit the game totally as he believed the game will die again within 9monsth due to Order quitting or Order joining destro and he didnt wish to waste anymore time on it, ALL OF US enjoyed the game, the characters, the lore, the zones, the pvp, the mechanics, the ToK, the emotes, the npc voices, the gear, everything, no complaints, the only issue is Order get brutally stomped into the dust, for a two faction game one side up to 90% wins isn't very appealing, when it was destro 64% was irritating but playable, 90% no, issues below and suggestions:

1. Destro is approx 25% tank, 25% heal, 25% meleedps, 25% ranged dps,
Order is 5% tanks, 10% heal, 20% melee dps 65% ranged dps
we need more tanks (and heals) but we have an army of nekkid engis and shads, called Ninebulletzpewpew or Leegoolazpewpew
i suggest gms doing 1 of two things A or B
A), putting a (temporary) account creation block on shad, bw and engi, they cannot be played sorry until the tanks and healers get up to 20%
OR
B) ppl can roll a shad and engi or bw sure but its level locked u cant level it more than 10 levs unless u ALSO roll a tank and level that 10 levs too, so the tank progress is tied to the main toon.
Gms cud also put info warning on class creation screen ** Warning order need tanks and healers if u make a ranged dps u may struggle to be competitive, u may struggle to get grps at end game, u may struggle to win, plz (also) make a tank or healer and help Order win.**
Anyone remember years back Blizz had some wow servers that got to 90% alliance or 90% horde and wrecked the server or alliance were over 50% Nelf hunters called Leegoolazz and no tanks or heals, and alliance couldnt raid or win in pvp, and blizz blocked it all and made new ppl roll what was needed, this worked and saved the servers.

2. destro have so much cc, especially ridiculous insta kill cc, like those pulls, what do order have? white lion fetch that works 1 in 10 tries ,, some people want to get rid of the pulls i dont... BUT i suggest DISABLING all pulls in FORT and CITY only, rest of game fine as paint have your pulls. im seeing SO MANY Order being pulled through walls and doors in Forts, not standing in doorway just PULLED THRU the scenery, this decides many forts outcomes before the push in even starts, 1 feckign pull> all.
this is in city also i was in city today and we were in the SAFE STARTER AREA which is shielded by an impassable energy wall, and destro were PULLING us thru the walls and through the impassable shield, we even tried cramming into far corner and against the wall and up the stairs to the red exit, out of range but still they pulled 27 (TWENTY SEVEN)of us thru the walls to instant death. people started quitting.
maybe even give each order toon a 'parry pull' ability cd 1 per 5misn only and u must click within 2 sec of pull to remain stoic at your original point of origin?

3. i dont know if the devs can change this but the models themselves, the Order tank models need to be more attractive to new players, the destro tank models look class and suped up, the order tanks look thin and uninspiring, the Dorf Ib shud be RamMan from heMan, the KOTBS shud be Thrud or Conan, the nelf Sm shud be Fingolfin but they all just look like Jeremey Corbyn or Joe Biden.

4. Order seem to have a lot of classes that are in Great needs of love and improvement WH, AM, IB, SH . i understand a buff to SH improves 6500 order players calle Leegoolaz and that effects the entire game but there are only only 23 (TWENTY THREE) players who are playing poor old witch hunter so buffing WH WOULD NOT EFFECT THE OVERALL GAME coz no1 plays it, just insane resillient die-hard nutters. Also gms cud make AM 2 choices pro DPS only, or pro heal only for pvp only no more meh dps or meh heal, pve u can keep the middle jack of all trades as its fun, ok, .

5. admittedly there are things order are responsible for like 75% of pug players refusing utterly to attack healers at the back and will spend 37 scens straight beating on tanks and die 37 times and lose 37 times and keep doing the exact same thing over and over. I believe our best order are equal to the best destro but the 2nd rung of destro seems to be very large, whereas order tails off pretty quick in quality due to the issues above, also the synergy between the destro classes is superior, its like destro were born to play together and order are just 12 strange cats thrown into the same room together. We have maybe 2 or 3 ppl who lead organised wbs, and we have another 6 or 7 who try to organise the wbs pugs or the overlfow, but we have MANY who complain, abuse or criticise who then REFUSE utterly to lead a wb themselves they just armchair quarterback, in my book anyone who leads any Order wb needs to be encouraged or helped , ive led a few order pug wbs , tried to arrange grps, be communicative and positive and liaise with Beastz or Graffer and it gives me a headache irl. its not fun but u get rewarded by making good decision and leading your men to a few victories, killing an afk choppa 20 to 1, and making some good new friends along the way, u also learn about all the maps and classes in the game and stuff you didnt know from others.

sorry this went on for longer than i wanted, i wanted to keep it short so ppl would read it and not just skip it coz its too long, so that was epic fail but i care about this game and i feel we are approaching TERMINUS END GAME for it. Order need some help, the game balance needs some help, 64% loss i can handle and accept but 90%? no. And losing 22 times 500-475 all day long i can handle its competitive, but losing 22 times 500-0 is not fun. these things need looking at or in 3 months we will be seeing 90% scens and city destro wins accepted as the norm, and more order going destro or quitting daily and destro not being able to get into city and 500 destro raging around praarg, and in 6 months it will be irreversible and thats only when unfortunately i think ppl will see it, 6 months after the rest of us and it will be too late, Nine months this will all be a memory, Dont let that happen gms, plz think of our suggestions or contact players to form a PLAYER COUNCIL of ppl who have passion for the game and also ideas for solutions , not just moaning. Please Gms, take this seriously and help the community. Order do not want to pass into the night meek, eyes lowered accepting defeat, restore our fierce pride and will to fight on , on an even keel!


Swords In the Wind.

The Mel.
Last edited by Meliannia on Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Spellbound
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#364 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:09 pm

wonshot wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:21 pm
Arbich wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:27 pm One thing I would like to know what was the heavy nerf that especially affected destro?
Destro strenghts for warband warfare
- Supperior displacements and crowdcontrol (magus no pull delay, mara aoe knockdown, zealot winds no immunity, meatball Outta my way no immunity)
- Supperior morale-game. Selfpumps, grouppumps, Aoe silences on BO + Zealot vs 50%chance to break root on knight.
- Slightly more versatile comps with more synergy.

Based on that, the nerfs listed above clearly hit destro harder on those classes that got affected on both realms :)
Perfectly put on their strengths and why Destro PUGs can win against Order PUGs in tight areas like the city. You can nearly piece together any class and do well.

-Order can't do 3 SW in a city like SH can
-Order can't do 3 AM in a city like Shaman can which has better survivability tools and easily seen him in competitive healing stats where most AMs you see on average 700k heals when RP/WP might have 2-3+ mil and Shaman can do 1.5-2mil+
-Marauders having AoE KD is HUGE and you can see Destro after Morale nerf bringing 3-4 Marauders now and notice the use. Order has to rely on 1 Engy *IF* he's invited to the city WB and has to blow up a turret rather than mobile use like Marauder can
-Destro has 3 pulls which are FAR superior.
***White Lions don't bring pets in city, so can't pull. Even if they do, they die.
*** Engy pull has a delay, as Bombling says Magus has no delay
*** Destro WB can bring 3-4 Choppas that can pull and kill w/ their blob before he lands, Magus and Marauder all going to town as I saw in one of our fights vs FMJ and 5 choppas/magus/mara.

If you played Dark Age of Camelot, Order is basically the Albion of Warhammer Online to where good abilities are spread out to too many classes where Destro has better versions and mustering into popular classes. However DAOC did a better job to help Albion out on live with Speedwarp and whatnot to counter the weaknesses rather than telling Albion to "organize and get better".

I see players start on Order, quit halfway through and go to Destro, why Destro pop is so much higher and easier to choose the classes they want in a city. Heck, our guild has Destro players in it, more than I realized and they mention how much easier it feels just doing scenarios.

I can't help with advice if the ears are closed. Appreciate they run the server for free, miss the game and they can choose how they balance to make it fun for them and their vision. Phoenix DAOC had their vision away from live and it worked out for them with Realm Timers and other rules. Some visions work, some don't and need adjustments when population changes.
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CountTalabecland
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#365 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:41 pm

The balance issues between Destro and Order dont even matter when it comes to win percentages.

The good, organized, vet wbs will always out perform pugs and /5 grps and so they will have a good chance to win, hence where Order 1-5 wins come from.

When it comes to the majority of instances, which I would say are pugs and /5 grps, Order's class comp is such complete ass that balance wont matter until Order rerolls better comp, which is likely never.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Spellbound
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#366 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:23 pm

CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:41 pm The balance issues between Destro and Order dont even matter when it comes to win percentages.

The good, organized, vet wbs will always out perform pugs and /5 grps and so they will have a good chance to win, hence where Order 1-5 wins come from.

When it comes to the majority of instances, which I would say are pugs and /5 grps, Order's class comp is such complete ass that balance wont matter until Order rerolls better comp, which is likely never.
Pretty much saying don’t roll AM, Engy, SW, WH as the solution? Where’s Shaman, Magus, SH and WE more effective in cities.
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wargrimnir
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#367 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:51 pm

Spellbound wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:09 pm
I can't help with advice if the ears are closed. Appreciate they run the server for free, miss the game and they can choose how they balance to make it fun for them and their vision. Phoenix DAOC had their vision away from live and it worked out for them with Realm Timers and other rules. Some visions work, some don't and need adjustments when population changes.
The subtle insinuation again that we don't listen to community feedback doesn't come as any surprise. The handful of community members who think they have the answers are always going to antagonize when they don't have control. I suppose I'll keep mentioning it in threads where people try to state otherwise. We use community feedback. We don't participate as much in community discussion because bad actors have a frequent tendency to act badly when they think there's attention being given out. If you're so high on the smell of your own farts to miss the changes happening week to week, there's not going to be much we can do to convince you. Limited staff, limited time, and opening conversations with the community big brains is a waste of both. You guys discuss what you want, and when something comes up that seems do-able, it's usually picked up internally and worked on. That's a far cry from "ears are closed". Your assumption is based on your own fat ego, not reality.
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CountTalabecland
Posts: 989

Re: City Winner History?

Post#368 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:52 pm

Spellbound wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:23 pm
CountTalabecland wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:41 pm The balance issues between Destro and Order dont even matter when it comes to win percentages.

The good, organized, vet wbs will always out perform pugs and /5 grps and so they will have a good chance to win, hence where Order 1-5 wins come from.

When it comes to the majority of instances, which I would say are pugs and /5 grps, Order's class comp is such complete ass that balance wont matter until Order rerolls better comp, which is likely never.
Pretty much saying don’t roll AM, Engy, SW, WH as the solution? Where’s Shaman, Magus, SH and WE more effective in cities.
I'm saying dont expect to get higher win percentages by playing classes the realm/wb doesnt need. Order needs more tanks and healers, simple as that. Plus RDPS is the worst archetype to have a lot of in a city street fight. All those destro classes are backed by more tanks and healers so even mediocre ones out perform Order's unhealed/unguarded classes.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Ramlaen
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#369 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:21 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:51 pm The subtle insinuation again that we don't listen to community feedback doesn't come as any surprise.
Lets not pretend that many class changes were not made for the personal benefit of current or past GM.
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wargrimnir
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Re: City Winner History?

Post#370 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:28 pm

Ramlaen wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:21 pm
wargrimnir wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:51 pm The subtle insinuation again that we don't listen to community feedback doesn't come as any surprise.
Lets not pretend that many class changes were not made for the personal benefit of current or past GM.
Considering there's no GM's on the balance team (nor have there ever been), how would they personally benefit? GM's enforce the rules on the server.

Do I personally benefit from managing the balance team where I work with multiple people to find solutions to balance? Perhaps you're referring to past developers (none of whom were GM's or involved in the GM responsibilities on the server) and are using "GM" as a general term for any staff member?

Or it's just another troll coming in to get his spanking. I dunno.
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