WL DMG Screenshot

[sogeou]

Get'em should do more than Leonine as the SH AA is trash and WLs have Sundering Strike/Armor debuffs/ignores.

Please stop. Nobody sane on either side thinks mSH > WL. It's not even close unless the pet goes from 2K hp to 12k hp, has the WL pet immunities (to morale AoE) , aoe damage reduction, and speed buff (even the WL pet has broken speed).

Their AA is not trash per say, attack speed of 2.4. They are attacking two times by the time most WL attack once due to 4.x speed weapon. WL does like 6k damage in aa in 20 seconds on test dummies, SH does 5800 damage on test dummies. This is not BIS toons.

I am not trying to say one is better than the other. I am trying to say they are on the same ground. Like if it was a Tier list WL might be S+, SH would be S. Still better than WE,WH, Mara, Choppa, melee tanks.

WL pet has like 8k depending on what spec buff you run. The most damaging one is the least. SH pet for melee could use more health and that would help. WL speed for the pet is a tactic which means less dps to make the pet do its job.

[Illuminati]

Get'em should do more than Leonine as the SH AA is trash and WLs have Sundering Strike/Armor debuffs/ignores.

Please stop. Nobody sane on either side thinks mSH > WL. It's not even close unless the pet goes from 2K hp to 12k hp, has the WL pet immunities (to morale AoE) , aoe damage reduction, and speed buff (even the WL pet has broken speed).

Their AA is not trash per say, attack speed of 2.4. They are attacking two times by the time most WL attack once due to 4.x speed weapon. WL does like 6k damage in aa in 20 seconds on test dummies, SH does 5800 damage on test dummies. This is not BIS toons.

I am not trying to say one is better than the other. I am trying to say they are on the same ground. Like if it was a Tier list WL might be S+, SH would be S. Still better than WE,WH, Mara, Choppa, melee tanks.

WL pet has like 8k depending on what spec buff you run. The most damaging one is the least. SH pet for melee could use more health and that would help. WL speed for the pet is a tactic which means less dps to make the pet do its job.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying other than using the pet to compare damage between the two. The pet dies so fast lol, so not viable in a majority of PVP.

[Stophy22]

For years white lion has been able to time stamp players.

For years people have complained.

For years it has remained imbalanced.

Now you have a choice as a player knowing something will never get fixed.

-Continue to complain about it.
-“if you can’t beat em join em.”
-figure out how to combat it.

There is oodles of data that proves WL has too much burst, too much mobility, and too much utility. So the cold hard truth remains.

Balance is not a top priority there is much more important stuff to work on.

Take it or leave it, I’ve been here since “torque’s guardian spec” and the many in between stages we had until now, the “dev plays WL” stage. The denial of white lions is a story that continues to this day.

Whenever someone brings up this topic you get the same responses;

-but melee squigs are stronger
-but marauder is stronger
-Destro complaining again, lol
-unsub if you’re that unhappy about it
-/popcorn
-WL has ap problems
-Try doing this...
-did you detaunt pet
-you’re probably just bad
-it used to be so much worse, it’s fine now.

And so many other stupid/unproductive/informative comments on player experience/personal struggles with WL.

I know better than to participate in these discussions but The definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result and I assure you I must be mad.

But with the strict purpose of educating people take what you will with the information provided, or sift through the other hundreds of WL threads, whatever works.

Also to clarify it’s not that Mara doesn’t have burst, it’s that WL doubles his burst, making you feel like you can’t do anything as the mirror of a class that kills without use or need or a hdbuff. Mara actually hits harder with his abilities than WL does (shocked me too) after testing it. Mara consistently hits about 100-200 more. But there is more to the story than that.

- Shattering blow is much stronger than 3 stacks of rend and only requires one application
- WL has mobility far greater than its prey making it very easy to never have a “damn he got away” moment that you might have on Mara thanks to good enemy positioning or small windows of being unguarded.
- the toolkit at white lions disposal is much better being able to keep armor debuff and get arguably better burst than an execute with leonine and brutal pounce.
- The pet. Now the pet is the biggest deal, he has comparable damage to the marauder and can even out-damage him using Leonine frenzy. The pet is also too healthy and defensive from aoe damage it’s not an option to kill the pet without direct threat to your life. Like how easy it is to slay a squig for example or engi turret.
- and the final difference is how both classes achieve their damage. Using a rotation that is mirror-able and 2gcds long (meaning both classes share abilities) it goes something like this;

WL: armordebuff(aa)coordinated strike
Pet: maul(aa)fang and claw

White lion just clicked two abilities and the pet auto piloted, lets check out Mara

Mara: -gift of savagery- armordebuff(aa) -gift of brutality- Convulsive slashing.

Mara clicked an ability, switched a stance, used convulsive for 3 tics (no more, no less!) jump cancel. End.

With data from target dummies doing this combo Mara gets out damaged by about 4k(assuming everything is a crit for both classes). While his abilities hit harder he just can’t keep up in a contest that is 2v1, the pet makes it so vastly different and that’s without leonine frenzy and the main point behind it all is that more effort was put into a lesser outcome.

Call it fun, call it finesse, call it a reason to play marauder rather than WL, call it op, call it whatever you want... it’s been around for a long time and no matter how many of these threads pop up I don’t think foreseeable change is in the future.

Final thoughts

TLDR: to say there is no issue with the class is blatant ignorance but to act like it’s going to get fixed from forum posts is wishful thinking. There is a lot of inaccurate data when accusing white lions vs x class so I broke it down.

[Gurf]

I have been playing a few months and there is a pretty common theme I see when playing both sides, Destro moan about WL and Order moan about MSH. Maybe they should nerf both classes by about 5% in damage first of all to see how it works to keep both sides happy, then buff the RSH. If that is not enough then they can look at both classes again. But you wouldn't want to nerf either class too much as then they are useless like they were on live. You can try make the topic only about WL but that isn't the way faction balance works. I was watching a Twitch stream the other day and saw a MSH melt a full Sov geared WH in about 3 seconds, i'm sure the damage screenshot would look very similar to the OP, so it is only Destro players who think the issue is only WL damage, there are wider issues to consider.

[Stophy22]

I have been playing a few months and there is a pretty common theme I see when playing both sides, Destro moan about WL and Order moan about MSH. Maybe they should nerf both classes by about 5% in damage first of all to see how it works to keep both sides happy, then buff the RSH. If that is not enough then they can look at both classes again. But you wouldn't want to nerf either class too much as then they are useless like they were on live. You can try make the topic only about WL but that isn't the way faction balance works. I was watching a Twitch stream the other day and saw a MSH melt a full Sov geared WH in about 3 seconds, i'm sure the damage screenshot would look very similar to the OP, so it is only Destro players who think the issue is only WL damage, there are wider issues to consider.

I’d say it’s wrong to assume Destro players are only in the mindset of white lion being the only issue. Melee squig is good but a reason completely different to white lion and honestly the reasonable comparison of melee squig and WL should start and end with pounce.

Squig is the mirror to shadow warrior and those classes should be compared more. Shadow warrior can be pretty brutal in assault stance as well but melee squigs shine with utility and aoe, not so much burst.

Squig is a ranged class that can go melee more viably than it can go ranged (not for long hopefully) and thus you get people playing meatball spec.

I agree that more is going on here than just “WL op nerf now” but I don’t care to explain that as well.

TLDR: M squigs in a pretty good spot and could use some tuning but absolutely not before WL. You’ll probably see less M squigs when they can go ranged again and be viable. We still have a few die hard r squigs out there still tho.

[Knowthyself]

I have seen constant and numerous treads containing complaints about WL during the the last 3 years I have been playing this game. There are many WL toons which were actually created to protest the OP situation of WLs with names such as Nerfme, Imbalanced etc. and those people actually play these toons as their main now. I do not understand and no longer question the obsession with that particular class -WL- on which they kept turning their deaf ear. At the current situation I think the only thing that hasn't been tried in that case is to convience Secrets to play another class maybe.

[hurycanlol]

Wl is just a good pug killer and no armor killer, when u fight a opti player with a minimum of RA def wl becomes much less strong
many players do not play opti, and wl love players not opti, that's why a lot of people hate wl

[sogeou]

For years white lion has been able to time stamp players.

For years people have complained.

For years it has remained imbalanced.

Now you have a choice as a player knowing something will never get fixed.

-Continue to complain about it.
-“if you can’t beat em join em.”
-figure out how to combat it.

There is oodles of data that proves WL has too much burst, too much mobility, and too much utility. So the cold hard truth remains.

Balance is not a top priority there is much more important stuff to work on.

Take it or leave it, I’ve been here since “torque’s guardian spec” and the many in between stages we had until now, the “dev plays WL” stage. The denial of white lions is a story that continues to this day.

Whenever someone brings up this topic you get the same responses;

-but melee squigs are stronger
-but marauder is stronger
-Destro complaining again, lol
-unsub if you’re that unhappy about it
-/popcorn
-WL has ap problems
-Try doing this...
-did you detaunt pet
-you’re probably just bad
-it used to be so much worse, it’s fine now.

And so many other stupid/unproductive/informative comments on player experience/personal struggles with WL.

I know better than to participate in these discussions but The definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result and I assure you I must be mad.

But with the strict purpose of educating people take what you will with the information provided, or sift through the other hundreds of WL threads, whatever works.

Also to clarify it’s not that Mara doesn’t have burst, it’s that WL doubles his burst, making you feel like you can’t do anything as the mirror of a class that kills without use or need or a hdbuff. Mara actually hits harder with his abilities than WL does (shocked me too) after testing it. Mara consistently hits about 100-200 more. But there is more to the story than that.

- Shattering blow is much stronger than 3 stacks of rend and only requires one application
- WL has mobility far greater than its prey making it very easy to never have a “damn he got away” moment that you might have on Mara thanks to good enemy positioning or small windows of being unguarded.
- the toolkit at white lions disposal is much better being able to keep armor debuff and get arguably better burst than an execute with leonine and brutal pounce.
- The pet. Now the pet is the biggest deal, he has comparable damage to the marauder and can even out-damage him using Leonine frenzy. The pet is also too healthy and defensive from aoe damage it’s not an option to kill the pet without direct threat to your life. Like how easy it is to slay a squig for example or engi turret.
- and the final difference is how both classes achieve their damage. Using a rotation that is mirror-able and 2gcds long (meaning both classes share abilities) it goes something like this;

WL: armordebuff(aa)coordinated strike
Pet: maul(aa)fang and claw

White lion just clicked two abilities and the pet auto piloted, lets check out Mara

Mara: -gift of savagery- armordebuff(aa) -gift of brutality- Convulsive slashing.

Mara clicked an ability, switched a stance, used convulsive for 3 tics (no more, no less!) jump cancel. End.

With data from target dummies doing this combo Mara gets out damaged by about 4k(assuming everything is a crit for both classes). While his abilities hit harder he just can’t keep up in a contest that is 2v1, the pet makes it so vastly different and that’s without leonine frenzy and the main point behind it all is that more effort was put into a lesser outcome.

Call it fun, call it finesse, call it a reason to play marauder rather than WL, call it op, call it whatever you want... it’s been around for a long time and no matter how many of these threads pop up I don’t think foreseeable change is in the future.

Final thoughts

TLDR: to say there is no issue with the class is blatant ignorance but to act like it’s going to get fixed from forum posts is wishful thinking. There is a lot of inaccurate data when accusing white lions vs x class so I broke it down.

Everything you posted is so full of **** and non truths lol. Give it a break QQ king. I have ZERO problems killing WL's on my mSH. Even being greatly out geared. Everything you list and say is whine, and most of it not true.

Like saying WL's pet out DPS other classes. The pet alone only does 500-700 dps max in bis gear. If you can't do more damage than that, you suck. Also, if your class is not running max amount of armor you are going to die.

If you are a running armor tali's and armor pot and have 3k+ armor along with low chance to be crit you will be fine. Every on here crying about a class doing too much damage because they are running glass cannon.

Classes which WL's can't kill unless someone makes a mistake. Heal spec Shaman, Heal Spec DOKs, Chosens, Black Orc, MSH, Black Guards, Zealots, Mara's like PINK, Self heal Choppa depends who gets KD and parries, Magus's like NGL kill almost all WL's.

The ones with the whine are glass cannon dps users, DPS shaman, ranged SH like a Yamcha, DPS tanks running FO, healers soft capped on willpower. People WHO don't detaunt.

WL's do almost laughable damage to all those full sov destro running around during EU prime time. Hitting targets for 300-400 max crit vs the 1k on the people are running around with no armor.

[sogeou]

Wl is just a good pug killer and no armor killer, when u fight a opti player with a minimum of RA def wl becomes much less strong
many players do not play opti, and wl love players not opti, that's why a lot of people hate wl

Pretty much what you are saying is correct. But, destro does not care. Just wants easy fights / kills.

[Foofmonger]

Frankly I think both sogeou and stophy are wrong here for the same reason - too much hyperbole in either direction.

I don't think WL's are unstoppable monsters, nor are they garbage who can't hurt/kill anyone except bads.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, let's be honest.