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Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#11 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:20 pm

Acidic wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:12 pm This is clear when you look as some of the pug warbands where they have 1 healer and 1 tank. They are there to get the loser reward and have no ambition to win.
Those ain't warband pugs, but people who went as soloQ and got mashed together. Majority of them are 2h tanks, engineers, SWs, dps AMs as nobody want them in their warband. While I agree partialy it's player issue, we can see here two other issues: 1) scarcity of tanks on order side and healers to lesser degree, 2) lack of class balance on order side, destro has much more viable classes.

Due to both of those, you can much easier build PUGs on destro side, as you get much less "rejects".

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Nekkma
Posts: 722

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#12 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:23 pm

The only thing I feel is not rewarding enough is winning the campaign and invading a city. Invading a city should mean something rewardwise. I would add royals depending on city stars to all attackers participating in the city siege upon stage 3 completion or keep it as it is and reduce bags for defenders.
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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#13 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Nekkma wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:23 pm The only thing I feel is not rewarding enough is winning the campaign and invading a city. Invading a city should mean something rewardwise. I would add royals depending on city stars to all attackers participating in the city siege upon stage 3 completion or keep it as it is and reduce bags for defenders.
Reducing bags for defendes is awful idea. We're defender not because we want to defend, but because other faction is overpopulated.

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Greywolfamakir
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Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#14 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:27 pm

Acidic wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:12 pm
Greywolfamakir wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:07 pm
Nekkma wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:53 am What gap are you talking about? If you are lucky with rolls as a loser you will get equal/more royals than a bagless winner. The typical 1-2 royals difference between winning and losing a stage (before bags) is hardly a large gap, the opposite actually.
I dont like that "If you are lucky with rolls".

I dont take "luck" in consideration.

Acidic wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:58 am

But they want free stuff for being afk
I didn't say something about AFK players, Im talking about current end-game is City Sieges, and the only real way to get best gear, but certain classes are rejected in WB, and you get forced to pug at the end because no one invites you.
Players afk when they start to lose , cities, keeps, sc ... this is a fact and by increasing the reward you encourage players to enter with no hope of victory. This is clear when you look as some of the pug warbands where they have 1 healer and 1 tank. They are there to get the loser reward and have no ambition to win.
A lot of the warbands going city should not even be able to queue , this is where the problem is
People always want to win, its a fact. People going afk is more about "no chance" situations, when you can do NOTHING. Like you said, if you have 1 tank and 1 healer in WB, and you're fighting agains perfect 2-2-2 full Sov composition, you have no chance to win. People don't go afk with no reason.

Bringing better rewards for losers wont encourage any kind of attitude, it'll help to people with NO gear, that is all. Giving gear to people with all the gear means nothing, helping people with no gear will encourage them to play.

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Acidic
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Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#15 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:20 pm
Acidic wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:12 pm This is clear when you look as some of the pug warbands where they have 1 healer and 1 tank. They are there to get the loser reward and have no ambition to win.
Those ain't warband pugs, but people who went as soloQ and got mashed together. Majority of them are 2h tanks, engineers, SWs, dps AMs as nobody want them in their warband. While I agree partialy it's player issue, we can see here two other issues: 1) scarcity of tanks on order side and healers to lesser degree, 2) lack of class balance on order side, destro has much more viable classes.

Due to both of those, you can much easier build PUGs on destro side, as you get much less "rejects".
This is a player issue not balance. If ppl chose classes to gank and 1v1 and join order as they have better 1v1 classes they should not expect to be given candy for showing up.
Last edited by Acidic on Mon May 18, 2020 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#16 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 pm

Greywolfamakir wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:27 pm Bringing better rewards for losers wont encourage any kind of attitude, it'll help to people with NO gear, that is all. Giving gear to people with all the gear means nothing, helping people with no gear will encourage them to play.
I'd rather buff Onslaught for serval classes to the BW/WP level, so people can get alternative nearly to BiS gear from PvE.
Maybe adding new PvE set with accessory and cloak to something harder than CH22 would be good idea, as Sentinel/Bloodlord are usualy good for offspecs rather than main specs, so you can't really get 'good' gear from PvE for many classes.
Acidic wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 pm
This is a player issue not balance. If ppl chose classes to bank and 1v1 and join order as they have better 1v1 classes they should not expect to be given candy for showing up.
...but WLs have no issues with finding WBs :lol:

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Nekkma
Posts: 722

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#17 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:36 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:26 pm
Reducing bags for defendes is awful idea. We're defender not because we want to defend, but because other faction is overpopulated.
I disagree. The majority of cities I participate in are IC defences (as I currently only play destro). Typically, huge amount of destro are stuck in que, not getting an instance. These people could have helped defending the zones in rvr, preventing a city. Right now, there is zero incentive to defend when you deem a city likely and you plan to play a few hours so you can participate in it. This is because it is much better for me to loose end zones and forts (ganking, but not defending, with AAO best case scenario) and then join a good destro group and breeze through city for royals.

Throwing zones, in the sense that people, me included, skip defending and then get organized and get maximum rewards for winning the final 40 minutes of a 5-12h campaign push seems like a good system to you?
Nekkma / Hjortron
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Acidic
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Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#18 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:38 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:31 pm
Greywolfamakir wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:27 pm Bringing better rewards for losers wont encourage any kind of attitude, it'll help to people with NO gear, that is all. Giving gear to people with all the gear means nothing, helping people with no gear will encourage them to play.
I'd rather buff Onslaught for serval classes to the BW/WP level, so people can get alternative nearly to BiS gear from PvE.
Maybe adding new PvE set with accessory and cloak to something harder than CH22 would be good idea, as Sentinel/Bloodlord are usualy good for offspecs rather than main specs, so you can't really get 'good' gear from PvE for many classes.
Probably the best approach, but it’s not hard to get conq which is decent for most classes and there is sc, sent, bloodlord, .
And yet not unusual to find pugs who can’t even bother to put gems in gear or buy pots.

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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#19 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 pm

Nekkma wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:36 pm
M0rw47h wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:26 pm
Reducing bags for defendes is awful idea. We're defender not because we want to defend, but because other faction is overpopulated.
I disagree. The majority of cities I participate in are IC defences (as I currently only play destro). Typically, huge amount of destro are stuck in que, not getting an instance. These people could have helped defending the zones in rvr, preventing a city. Right now, there is zero incentive to defend when you deem a city likely and you plan to play a few hours so you can participate in it. This is because it is much better for me to loose end zones and forts (ganking, but not defending, with AAO best case scenario) and then join a good destro group and breeze through city for royals.

Throwing zones, in the sense that people, me included, skip defending and then get organized and get maximum rewards for winning the final 40 minutes of a 5-12h campaign push seems like a good system to you?
I can understand your point on view, but you need remember, that Order overall has much lower playerbase, and if Destro won't be throwing, then Order will be nearly ALWAYS defending. Now, if you reduce rewards for defence two things will happen : 1) Order will be even more undergeared, 2) less people on Order will play cities and you will get even less instances for your overpopulated side.

I think we need different approach to rewarding for Campaign as a whole. Probably rewards reduced for City Sieges a lot, but with weekly rewards added like for solo Ranked, where you get amount of Conq/Vanq/Invaders/Royals (type based on your ToK unlocks) based on your total contribution to RvR campaign, so throwing, City logging and ignoring RvR won't be promoted or rewarded.

Also - about reducing gap between wining and losing : I don't think it's needed.

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Reduce the gap in rewards between winning and losing

Post#20 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:50 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:20 pm
Acidic wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:12 pm This is clear when you look as some of the pug warbands where they have 1 healer and 1 tank. They are there to get the loser reward and have no ambition to win.
Those ain't warband pugs, but people who went as soloQ and got mashed together. Majority of them are 2h tanks, engineers, SWs, dps AMs as nobody want them in their warband. While I agree partialy it's player issue, we can see here two other issues: 1) scarcity of tanks on order side and healers to lesser degree, 2) lack of class balance on order side, destro has much more viable classes.

Due to both of those, you can much easier build PUGs on destro side, as you get much less "rejects".
2h tank and dps AM are not classes. All 3 tank classes can spec to useful city roles (SM less desired out of the 3), AM can spec for healing/morale. ASWs are also very good in city. I understand the frustration for people who play classes where nobody wants them regardless of what spec they went, but if people aren't willing to respec for an hour to a different role to get mad loot then **** them. Otherwise, I want to be able to go in on my 1050 intel Zealot (which does terrible damage btw, even with Divine Fury and Bloodlord for an extra 30%) and get easy loot. And going by those graphs of order classes seen, order are not lacking for healers. There's a WP army outthere somewhere.

The main difference is destro dps in general are doing easy AOE which can put out a lot of pressure but can struggle to secure kills quickly. Order MDPS like the WL, ASW and WH need to be running an assist train (the Slayers can join in too) and when it's done properly it tears a massive hole in the destro backlines which can be very difficult to recover from. Order have to try harder but when they do they can get far more kills in cities.
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