Debate about why Order is how it is.

[wonshot]

Spoiler:

There are so many posts that already capture just about everything going on. I'd like to add that people play order vs destro because they might think themselves the underdog in a certain situation or might have never played (insert realm before) and never want to (sort of like myself)

I think a lot of it heavily relies on the fact of having fun. Whats fun in warhammer?

A.) Guarding and helping people live

B.) Healing and helping people live

C.) Dealing damage and killing people

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure all are acceptable answers but the problem with that is A,B, and C, have a different amount of people behind each answer

After you figure out what role you want you start to explore not only aesthetically but what each class can do.

D.) Destro Healer vs Order Healer

E.) Destro Tank vs Order Tank

F.) Destro Dps vs Order Dps

And I think the answer to D, E, and F are widely scewed by personal preference of people both educated about the game and people uneducated about the game.

Using myself as an example

Spoiler:

I play a destro tank because tanks are needed by my allies and its a role not always played well. You stand out to the correct group of people when you do well and it feels good. I play destro because I view order as an

Spoiler:

"easier side" This is an opinion dont @ me lol

and other factors and thus would like to play the more challenging side.

Even if I were to play order I probably wouldn't play a tank because of how shitty the options are and would probably gravitate toward the dwarf who can heal himself and kill people from safety or the wizard that only needs one ability to get more kills than I would ever care to need. Or probably a WL since its so free. The blatant negligence for how strong WL's are is a huge factor of why I don't want to step onto orders side. It's just too easy.

But all of this falls under opinions I've developed throughout playing warhammer and some facts/examples to backup or reinforce my opinions, and other people with like minded opinions. Obviously someone should step onto the other side to have knowledge of what they're facing, other than that I have no reason to play the side I dislike. I'm sure others view destro the same way I view order. Just throwing this way of thinking out there.

That was an interesting new perspective. Thanks for that.

The newplayers coming to the game have a very limmited resource pool to rely on in terms of making their upcoming main and picking a side, luckily they can play on both on RoR
Watching streamers, asking questions on discord, and searching youtube is probably the go-to way for some of them, where as others have expressed in this topic already, just had to test the waters and dip their toes in the deep end and see how class mechanics feel for them.

I wonder if an updated system like this one:
https://imgur.com/a/yrthVV0
On Age of Reckoning but instead stateing what archtypes are needed on each realm based on a community pool drawn ingame(is this still possible i think we saw it once a year ago?) would help newcomers not fall into the order engineer trap and help destro get some rdps to kill oil in a keepsiege.

[Ekundu01]

I wanna hear 1 person explain what KOTBS does better than Chosen besides having a 15% healing buff to group which is the only defense to Chosens 25% healing DEBUFF AURA.

If you go 2handed you have more utility and chosen has 0 utility as 2handed. You can slot a tactic that makes your wounds debuff also make them more likely to be crit, chosen has no equal.

Staggering impact reduces players chance to defend by 10% for all hit and it is aoe, chosen gets no equal skill compared to that. Knight gets 2 ways to interrupt one being taunt that all tanks have and you have vicious slash that also interrupts, chosen only has taunt to interrupt.

You get a baseline armor buff that only has 5sec down time if you slot the tactic for it, chosen has to spec all the way up the tree to get the same armor buff AND has to block or parry to get the buff and it can be shattered off.

Morales you have solar flare and no escape. Chosen morales are all kinda meh.

Slice through lets you keep up to 3 people basicly perma snared, chosen can't do that and actually i think knight is the only tank that can aoe snare players.

[Vayra]

Slice through lets you keep up to 3 people basicly perma snared, chosen can't do that and actually i think knight is the only tank that can aoe snare players.

On destruction BG can spec for an aoe snare.

[growill]

I don't think the issue has anything to do with Destro being too strong (ofc there are some overperforming aspects, on both sides, that need to be addressed) but more that Order classes that are undesirable need something added to them to make them worth a slot.

This is one of the few actually constructive arguments in this thread. Pay attention to this guy.

mm which is basically saying that Order has classes that are too weak to be played (aka undesirable) compared to destro that have better (aka stronger) classes

[emiliorv]

15% outgoing aoe heal debuff
No escape M3
Solare Flare M4

Its a 25% outgoing aoe heal debuff

[rameden]

Engie vs Magus i think the biggest issue between the two is size. Dwarf has the at low profile that allows them in keep defenses to stay mostly untargetable or they can hide in bushes and other nutty hiding spots that magus just can't blend in because they are on a big disk that screams TARGET ME. So you get a lot of engies that stick it out vs magus that usually give up before high rr and engie doesn't have as many flashy graphic effects from bullets being shot vs magus big red balls being thrown making it easy to see where it came from. Anyone who plays a magus knows you are being targeted all the time. I would put money on it that there are probably a lot more high RR geared engies vs magus on the shear fact it is easier to blend in and rake in the kills in the lakes.

Lol you think the biggest discrepancy between the engi and magus is their size?! Is that a joke? You must be pretty dense...

- Magi gets a 15% crit tactic on main abilities without having to have their pet out
- The pull spec for magi isn't utter trash
- Magi single target is so far above the engi it's laughable. Elemental vs Physical... Everyone and their mother has by default a fair amount of armor to mitigate the engis "hard hitting" spells, I dont see anyone stacking elemental.
- Magi actually has decent ways of returning AP
- Magi's cast time on dots is instant (no waiting for animations) while engi you have to wait
-- Sure snipe vs bolt of change snipe wins out but the damage you get off bolt of change vs snipe kills the animation "buff" the engi gets

[normanis]

byt order most clases really look like copy paste from t1. add some **** on robe -> t2 robe.
vs destro who have gear with every new tier better and better looking.
lol even npc on order side has better gear ( looking) than i wear.
wl coppys paste
why u cant remove those dam feathers from kobs ( in history feathers where added only for parades to show off, byt in real fight they would be broken anyway only exeption is poland/horvatian husars where their feathers on back make sound frrrrrr to scare oponents)
sm dps is not so good as it was before nerf
lol sw festering arrows bomb ( ppl play sw because of legolass , thanks to tolkien)
wh use all time same uniform ( **** on it -> ubber supper gear) like in history lack uniforms to add it into game
ok bw look same as slayer byt in all concept arts bw should have burning head or burning iron torches on shoulders ( i dont know how to add here pic) they look awesome in concept art.
about organised wb, order realy lack tanks ,
kobs has +15 heal rp has 25% byt chosen debuff heal and its still has +15% while chosen has his zealot +25% heal buff ( sm has 20% and wp outgoing 20% - its trigers on defense so basicly u need to be in combat line where ppl hit u to triger it)
there is bigger shiet dps than sw and its rune priest even zealot has better tactics for dps self defence than rp. who will allow rp cats 5 sec aoe res. when all fights are dinamic. zealot punt away is more betetr than rp.

[normanis]

I wanna hear 1 person explain what KOTBS does better than Chosen besides having a 15% healing buff to group which is the only defense to Chosens 25% healing DEBUFF AURA.

If you go 2handed you have more utility and chosen has 0 utility as 2handed. You can slot a tactic that makes your wounds debuff also make them more likely to be crit, chosen has no equal.

Staggering impact reduces players chance to defend by 10% for all hit and it is aoe, chosen gets no equal skill compared to that. Knight gets 2 ways to interrupt one being taunt that all tanks have and you have vicious slash that also interrupts, chosen only has taunt to interrupt.

You get a baseline armor buff that only has 5sec down time if you slot the tactic for it, chosen has to spec all the way up the tree to get the same armor buff AND has to block or parry to get the buff and it can be shattered off.

Morales you have solar flare and no escape. Chosen morales are all kinda meh.

Slice through lets you keep up to 3 people basicly perma snared, chosen can't do that and actually i think knight is the only tank that can aoe snare players.

chosen has good m2 and m1
kobs aoe wounds debuff need 2h and tactic sacrefice while chosen has in all stances and bg crimson no need sacrefice tactic ( u can use only 4 tactics)
chosen can silence all magicians who attack him while kobs has ..... well kobs has nothing to counter destro magicians not even sqiugs , he just have 2 melle auras.
black orc da greenest works on hit while sm need hit someone ( **** sword master need hit someone while black ORC need wait till someone hit him, crazy world. in lore orcs are those who are bullies and brawlers not those who wait that someone hit tham. BROKEN LORE)

[trimal]

Slayer vs Choppa the differences are in the spec trees so we still see a healthy amount of both. But a lot of slayers play bad riposte 1v1 yolo builds because of terrible videos posted here and bring that nonsense to WB play where it doesn't do well.

The difference in the spec trees is only half of it. The different tactics also matter and that includes the racial tactics. Choppas get I'm Da Biggest which is simply superior to Ancestral Inheritance (especially due to Destro generally doing more nonphysical damage making armor stacking less useful for order anyway). The extra HP makes the choppa less painful to pay for pugs. They also get that tactic rather early. I have played both classes a bunch and the slayer is very painful to pay unless you have a guard.

Also I pretty sure those slayers are running the riposte build because stacking high defenses is one of the only things a slayer can do to try and survive longer against the destro melee train. If you are doing that why not also run riposte? The logic is sound at least.

[Martok]

Lol you think the biggest discrepancy between the engi and magus is their size?! Is that a joke? You must be pretty dense...

It you feel the need to open your argument is this manner then your argument isn't worth hearing.