Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Kloaner]

Of course sometimes things go well and the Order wb is more organized or plays better, thats why city siege result is 5:23 and not 0:28.

so when Order win they play well and if Destro win they are OP? Always or only in City?

[teiloh]

Every group would need a shaman for their morales to be in sync... it also takes away its own survial/healing potential... so bait out the morale or drain it and its pretty wasted and in longer lasting fight it will count against them... Also not that many good shamans around too.

Top tier shamans are great and all but they are few and far between. There is no way every destro instance is going to have 4 pro shamans and doks (what about the zealots )

Its a niche if you go this route and ive done it but the more extreme version in orvr for a event... still think proper setup is superior because niche setup is very one "trick pony" what if you mess up morale bomb or it get countered etc... it puts too many eggs in one basket.

wouldnt know about rdps heavy in city as ive run almost 0 rdps in cities and been a champ down in stage 3... technically could run a 8 welf setup and get similar results with alot of compositions we end up facing, but serious ones like montague, vii lob etc would cope with that alot easier ...

You don't have to have a good Shaman, all they need to do is hit EWG in advance, then hit it again and maybe a third time and bam, you're 80% of the way to M2. You also don't need the entire group to do it. Your one morale pumping group can get a leg up on using Distracting Bellow, Focused Mind (Sham), Khaine's Withdrawal, etc which are all game changers on their own. MDPS can get Confusing Movements instantly.

[kmark101]

Of course sometimes things go well and the Order wb is more organized or plays better, thats why city siege result is 5:23 and not 0:28.

so when Order win they play well and if Destro win they are OP? Always or only in City?

Worst order pugs lose, worst destro pugs lose, but the middle ground, the vast majority of the population/games, the semi organized vs semi organized there is zero chance for order, hence the score shows, and thats why it's no zero, but some very small number (yes, shitty destro wb's exist with afkers, disconnecters, 0 tanks, we have seen them all, they are there, it is not relevant and this is not what I was writing about obvously). Why are you even challenging this, don't you see the results yourself?

[jtj5002]

Of course sometimes things go well and the Order wb is more organized or plays better, thats why city siege result is 5:23 and not 0:28.

so when Order win they play well and if Destro win they are OP? Always or only in City?

Worst order pugs lose, worst destro pugs lose, but the middle ground, the vast majority of the population/games, the semi organized vs semi organized there is zero chance for order, hence the score shows, and thats why it's no zero, but some very small number (yes, shitty destro wb's exist with afkers, disconnecters, 0 tanks, we have seen them all, they are there, it is not relevant and this is not what I was writing about obvously). Why are you even challenging this, don't you see the results yourself?

Not every city go 23-5. In the last thread that got locked, Order vs Destro is around ~40-60 on average. Which isn't that much of a disparity considering that a lot of order solo quers/6 mans get in while on destro there is almost no chance most solo/6 mans even getting in. Almost every WB on destro's side is at least a 24 man discord pug.

[Martok]

Why everyone in this thread keeps ignoring the glaring huge imbalance with the morale gameplay and how easy is to drop morales on destro compared to order (considering same skills with movement + get to the choppa pull spam)...

If true, I wonder what one potential cause for this could be?

[Alterkraft]

The problem (imo) with functional competitive organized Order warbands is, is that the play style is a lot more demanding and niche compared to destro (yes, this has been said multiple times now but it's still a mystery for some reason that this game is about morals and having them at the right time).

And for that reason I think it's much harder for order currently to recruit the right people and maintain that player base (hint: roll destro for a bit and recruit there and force them to work on alts ) cause the people who know how to play this niche composition, know it requires a lot of coordination and effort to execute properly and even then, there is room for failure which will result in a wipe and that brings its own frustrations inside your guild. It's either play whatever you like and lose or see the bigger picture, play the team game and figure it out, which trumps playing the class I like, but that's me of course

But that said it's also a mentality issue. Do you want to win or do you want to play whatever or however you want and lose? Cause with the current way the game is balanced you can't get away with 7 engi's in one instance and expect to win against even the puggiest of pug destro comps.

[Glorian]

My 2cents on Order in a city was actually the city Wam described with his WE sixman but on Order side.

No one wants to step up on Order and tell people to do this, go to that group or buff up. When I tried it several times on Bifur I gave even armor potions out. Because order goes into cities without double pots.

If that is not given I stop thinking about tripple potions at all. So you try to bring Order players to cooperate and after the first two whipes because no one attacks MAs targets you have 3afks and an WH doing sight seing.

While the rest tells you that you are a shitleader. Ofc you don't take engis in a city. You have enough stupid engis in there that put landmines into doorways so destro tanks get free immunities.

So I can acknowledge the order pug mentality of wanting to get stuff without doing base groundwork like pots, stay on a main assist, or even follow a person that tries to bring a direction in. While all the same have 3 reasons why his call was wrong afterwards.

[dansari]

Spoiler:

The problem (imo) with functional competitive organized Order warbands is, is that the play style is a lot more demanding and niche compared to destro (yes, this has been said multiple times now but it's still a mystery for some reason that this game is about morals and having them at the right time).

And for that reason I think it's much harder for order currently to recruit the right people and maintain that player base (hint: roll destro for a bit and recruit there and force them to work on alts ) cause the people who know how to play this niche composition, know it requires a lot of coordination and effort to execute properly and even then, there is room for failure which will result in a wipe and that brings its own frustrations inside your guild. It's either play whatever you like and lose or see the bigger picture, play the team game and figure it out, which trumps playing the class I like, but that's me of course

But that said it's also a mentality issue. Do you want to win or do you want to play whatever or however you want and lose? Cause with the current way the game is balanced you can't get away with 7 engi's in one instance and expect to win against even the puggiest of pug destro comps.

Sure.... But the fact remains that destro has waaaaaaaay more versatility in what they bring. It's not even close. See above where FMJ brought a literal memeband of 2 Magus, 6 sorc, and 1 Mara and won. I've seen so. many. destro comps that just fill with whatever the **** because most everything outside of a WE/Magus is useful in most situations, meanwhile it's pretty apparent that AM, IB, engy, WH, and SW are all D tier depending on comp, to the point where you actively shun all or all but 1 of these classes out of city warbands. I think it's very cute that nearly every destro fanboi has created this fantasy that they are somehow simply better players than order. Fact is 70-75% of the playerbase is meme pugs. Question is why destro's meme pugs perform better than order's at a clip of 65-35 on average

[poisonedshotz]

Question is why order's meme fort defense perform better than destro's at a clip of 95-5 on average

Oh wait, its because order players CHOOSE to play classes like BW and Engi which are strong in fort and weaker in city. Stop whining and hoping the devs will cater and make your favorite classes the best for all types of content.

[Alterkraft]

Sure.... But the fact remains that destro has waaaaaaaay more versatility in what they bring. It's not even close. See above where FMJ brought a literal memeband of 2 Magus, 6 sorc, and 1 Mara and won. I've seen so. many. destro comps that just fill with whatever the **** because most everything outside of a WE/Magus is useful in most situations, meanwhile it's pretty apparent that AM, IB, engy, WH, and SW are all D tier depending on comp, to the point where you actively shun all or all but 1 of these classes out of city warbands. I think it's very cute that nearly every destro fanboi has created this fantasy that they are somehow simply better players than order. Fact is 70-75% of the playerbase is meme pugs. Question is why destro's meme pugs perform better than order's at a clip of 65-35 on average

AM is just not being used correctly, of course using it properly would require coordination and practice...

Treat it more as utility rather than a full on healer.