Debate about why Order is how it is.

[EsthelielSunfury]

I'd like to offer one more take as a new player when it comes to choice.

I joined when Peon released that video (roughly 2months ago) and I play only tanks and healers in MMOs - WoW is the only game I enjoy playing a warlock.

Coming here and having a look at the classes - it was an immediate choice for Disciple of Khaine and Blackguard. I've since mained my Archmage and log my BG once a week or so (still rank 26). DoK was binned.

The thing is, I like all the dps classes in Order, they look amazing and are very aesthetically pleasing, especially Witch Hunters and Shadow Warriors, but I don't want to play them, I want to play WITH them. Going in to try Order tanks was extremely underwhelming compared to doing the exact same thing on Destruction side of things. The toolkit that you have on BG by rank 20s as opposed to IB is ridiculous, it feels amazing to play, while on IB you do a million things that go unnoticed by everyone and you cannot even tell if in the end of things, it mattered at all. SMs on the other hand looks really weird with armor, a somewhat interesting take by the developers, but not one I like. Not even gonna mention KotBS, would skip that even if someone paid me to do it.

Another bit, probably unrelated - got my two best friends to try this game for a bit and they had the same impression :"Dwarves are a bit like gnomes in this game, too short." Really weird eh?

Gameplay wise, I'll reiterate the point someone else has already said. Playing PuG on Destruction is a much, much better experience overall. Group compositions seem a lot better, people sticking together and blobbing. I'm not too sure what's causing it, probably older players might have a clue but it's really apparent in City. Facing PuG vs PuG is really difficult as Order since they always seem to get the basics down very well. I mean, just today we had a KotBS in City come up with a master plan to go away on their own to bait TUP, presumably the most experienced warband we never asked to fight. Half the warband was calling for stacking, tank went off, 3 people that gave up because they recognized some names and went off to the corners of the map to attack something? It happens quite often and it's really weird. I know the melee heavy faction has an advantage in close quarters, but people give up before the fight even begins.

Anyways, just a few thoughts.

[Wam]

My thoughts is its just a logical, after all changes - nerfs/buffs, reworks.

Destro wb playstyle doesnt changed in all this years: blob-aoe-moralbomb.

On other hand order always have pretty strict wb setup, and pretty much all parts of this set up got nerfed over the time.
If the match isnt massively favors 1 side in terms of gear/composition, order tactics on game is usually just harder to pull in pugish environment. All this: "dont blob spread out, now come together bomb, we need this 1(or nonexistent) am somehow pump whole wb" requires far more communication than simple: stick together and bomb on my command.

some of the nerfs have also favoured order too... can only imagine the never ending tears if tup was still running a ZDPS with uninteruptable knockbacks in city... its not all one way

Order is a bit more rigid granted and a little bit more messy... not enough good AM's on the server to carry order is partial issue (too many am only got DPS mindset)

the white lion warband on order showed order can do nice things also ... but it had "proper players" who "assist" and "communicate" something which is lacking alot from multiple groups ive fought.

Nerfing WH is bit harsh also (similar to welf but more a kick to order in bigger picture)

Our wb composition changed alot from ORVR to City... to say playstyle has not changed for destro is a bit disingenious ... no magi, no zdps, lack of sorcs... more melee heavy.

Scenarios, and city is a scenario tend to favour melee skewed teams... order overly stacking rdps causes them issues, need to balance it out mix of aoe ranged pressure and ST assist if they want more joy, but order keep on feeding by bringing rag tag setups then complaining destro is op... which is not the case because some order groups get success and already did so on ALTS because they play more to order's strengths and less rag tag setup... the one time i bring rag tag setup on order side is the only lost we had but thats sod's law and instant queing seeking challenge.

[Foverskov]

Gameplay wise, I'll reiterate the point someone else has already said. Playing PuG on Destruction is a much, much better experience overall. Group compositions seem a lot better, people sticking together and blobbing. I'm not too sure what's causing it, probably older players might have a clue but it's really apparent in City. Facing PuG vs PuG is really difficult as Order since they always seem to get the basics down very well. I mean, just today we had a KotBS in City come up with a master plan to go away on their own to bait TUP, presumably the most experienced warband we never asked to fight. Half the warband was calling for stacking, tank went off, 3 people that gave up because they recognized some names and went off to the corners of the map to attack something? It happens quite often and it's really weird. I know the melee heavy faction has an advantage in close quarters, but people give up before the fight even begins.

This so much, it's alot easier finding groups on Destro because there is alot more, compared to Order, having played both sides abit and stuck with Order, it feels alot of people just take the solo que and then go in just for the lose, I have had the massacre stomp and I have had some fun Pug vs Pug matchups, but Destro is just alot more organized, but it also kinda feels like the more competitive players drift towards Destro.

The lookwise thing I don't think play a big role in the matter, since both sides are near equally populated, This reminds me abit of WoW, where if you wanna play the game more competitive you have to play Horde, while the more casual players play Alliance.
Ofc I understand there is still alot of Order guilds playing comptetively.

Classwise I can't really comment on, since I play everything and enjoy it.

Thats just want it seems to me in the time I have played on this server.

[teiloh]

Its like , surely , surely wargrimmer sees how ridiculously superior BW is to Sorc. WL are OP yes , but they are also relegated mele and can be dealt with, its not like they don't have a weakness, and I see them more as Choppers or mele SH. Sorcs are spooky and all, but literally nothing compared to BW. I am fine with classes being different. But just look at sorcs ....resist magic...okay not gona help you with mele trained and argueably inferior to the armor, but does let you survive some rando dots and ae thrown your way. Obsession is absolute **** trash unless you are walking around randomly in the world and encouter a 1v1 situation. In SC or oRvR that is so rare. Its not worth the GCD. In return BW get a clense , which pairs nicely with their armor buff. Add onto that more AE , and the close in the gap of single target DPS and its like, jesus.

Destro requires more order and discipline in their ranks, esp with mele , but they have stronger mele pain trains than they realize. But 90% of the time, even in wb , people play like potato. Order just benefits that with superior classes that can do everything themselves. Imagine if sorc had a core self heal or life steal? Or an Iceblock? Destro can achieve similar results but they require more teamwork, and ontop of that BW just have larger numbers for what the archtype is designed to do, make boom boom.

However suggesting that ironbreakers should be larger is gona be written in the book of grudges im afraid.

Sorcs aren't worse than BW at all. Yeah Shroud of Darkness and Obsession aren't great but their damage types are debuffed for far more than the BW's, and that can result in a 15-40% damage difference (spirit) and 20-80% on Corp (double debuff with Zealot). That alone makes Sorcs far superior to BWs in every imaginable way.

That and Ice Spikes >>> Detonate (which was nerfed to ****), IG >>>>> Flame Breath, GoN is basically a ranged 5 tick ID that does more damage. So those are two abilities in the standard AOE rotation that do a ****-ton more damage at much safer ranges.

The Wizard as far as damage goes has Flashfire and Wildfire but the Sorc has tons of good tactics that can be roughly equivalent depending on the situation. IG, EK, Glorious Carnage, TTD, TB, Piercing Shadows, etc. Will always be choosing between 6-10 excellent tactics as opposed to 6-11 for WIzards.

[adapter]

They lack melee dps because Slayer is too ugly it has no cool appereances, it's a drunk fat asss midget, not like the Choppa who has one of the most unique and badasses gear appereances in the game.

Order has small variaty of cool appereances, it's like their whole gear looks way too similar. Also their Range DPS is too popular such like the Engineer and Bright Wizzard, they look cool in a certain way and that may be one of the reasons Order plays them too much.

Destruction has a whole variety of gear appereances.

[dansari]

To answer the OP: it's about aesthetics, imo. Destro tanks have always looked cooler than order tanks.

To answer everyone else that morphed this into a conversation about balance: it's about versatility, overtuning, and simple counters. Yeah, most of the top order players are doing fine.. as long as they bring at least 4 WPs and at max 1 AM, at least 4 kobs and at max 1 IB, a healthy dose of mdps preferably 4 Slayer with 1-2 WL, 0-2 ASW, 1-2 BW. Please don't bring engy or too many ranged dps or too many ASW. Assist train well, avoid/recover from morale drops that you can't counter directly, etc.

Meanwhile, I've literally seen every combination of destro work. I've seen meatball stacks with 3-4 MSH. I've seen no Mara. I've seen 4 Mara. I've seen 6 Choppa. I've seen 2 chosen, 4 BO, 2 BG with 4 sham, 2 dok, 2 zealot morale drops. I've seen 6 sorc, 1 chop, 1 Mara balls. I've seen 4 chosen 3 BO 1 BG. I've seen 4 BG 1 chosen 3 BO.

ffs FMJ beat fenryl's /5 with **** 7 healers, 2 magus, 6 sorc, and a Mara (not even 2-2-2). Please don't try to tell me that FMJ with 7 healers is just better than Fenryl's /5 who win most of their cities.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... ru_281.jpg

From what I can tell LOB/Montague won in kills but lost every stage this morning to Dachosen's /5 but that's on them for bringing an engy and not enough Slayers amirite fellow kids lmao

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _city1.jpg

Score was Order 5, Destro 23 this morning. Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.

[jtj5002]

I find it interesting that BOTH order and destro complains about order having too many BW/Engies. I find it rather humorous that people think destro tanks being physically bigger might have anything to do with it. Destro struggles to fill tanks for city WBs consistently every city too. Every WB in LFG is looking for tanks.

I think there are just a lot more casual players on order that only cares about RVR and don't care about city. Order wins majority of RVR and forts wit superior number and rdps.

Also on destro, solo ques and 6 man very rarely even get into cities. Every WB you face will likely at least be a 2/2/2 discord pug. Destro have more people logging on for cities and will outnumber order as soon as city comes up. So while solo que/6man/pugs might be getting into cities on order, they will only face 24 man 2/2/2 on the other side.

[Vayra]

Score was Order 5, Destro 23 this morning. Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.

I don't play Order so I can't speak about how pre-city organization is there, but on destro I typically see 5-10 different leaders advertising for full warbands and as many or more advertising for 6-12 man groups. All those groups will be if not optimal class wise, at least have a 2/2/2 composition, be willing to cooperate and have a plan for the city. And these are the ones I see. There's more that form from guilds only and don't advertise in /1 or /5.

Compare that to what I see when I face order in the city. I've seen instances with a single tank and 5 healers. I've seen instances with almost entirely ranged dps and a decent setup of healing/tanking. Only once have I seen a good 2/2/2 setup that seemed to have a plan, and that was a stomp where we barely got a single kill until stage 3.

Destro are willing to group up and coordinate, because we know that gives better chances at rewards. I'm honestly surprised order isn't capable of the same.

[Telen]

Its mostly the same players playing both sides. The difference is that melee trains are far easier to focus assist in a pug environment and easy for your average tank to just slap a guard on an mdps and follow him around.

[dansari]

Score was Order 5, Destro 23 this morning. Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.

I don't play Order so I can't speak about how pre-city organization is there, but on destro I typically see 5-10 different leaders advertising for full warbands and as many or more advertising for 6-12 man groups. All those groups will be if not optimal class wise, at least have a 2/2/2 composition, be willing to cooperate and have a plan for the city. And these are the ones I see. There's more that form from guilds only and don't advertise in /1 or /5.

Compare that to what I see when I face order in the city. I've seen instances with a single tank and 5 healers. I've seen instances with almost entirely ranged dps and a decent setup of healing/tanking. Only once have I seen a good 2/2/2 setup that seemed to have a plan, and that was a stomp where we barely got a single kill until stage 3.

Destro are willing to group up and coordinate, because we know that gives better chances at rewards. I'm honestly surprised order isn't capable of the same.

Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.