Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Drys]

IMO true tanks are pretty thankless to play. In SCs your work doesn't show up on the stat chart (unless 2H dps). In RVR, getting RR is slower (at least my experience in playing dps vs snb tanks) unless you're 1/4 on a ram or the one guy on oil. For healers, you at least your effort show up in SC charts.

I think you'd see more snb tanks and heal-healers if the renown scaled up better, or there was some other mechanism to account for snb/heal contributions so that you got a bigger reward.

[emiliorv]

Probably something like this...

60% of the players want to be DPS
20% of the players want to be Healers
10% of the players want to be Tanks
10% of the players don't want to identify / can play multiple

Well, as dps you have access to better/easy rewards...better as RDPS, you can stay ungrouped at backline throwing some AoE dots/DD and get more RP than playing a tank/healer in a pug wb. Maybe your realm would lose but as a player you will get more profit...so why bother to play a support class??

lets talk about engi...you can go aoe, stay at choke points dropping napalm/P.Shells and some more dots and wait for purple rain...you dont need grp, can use keg/pots to heal if needed (for sure this kind gameplay was one of the problems when devs fixed the dire shield tactic from chosen...all that river of tears from loners aoe casters...). If need extra heals/rez you can join one of the pug wb...until you find safe again, leave and keep leeching RP...

You cant do any of these things as a tank or a healer (specced as proper healer), these roles are binded to grp/wb gameplay...you cant go solo and profit.

[Sarnai]

IMO true tanks are pretty thankless to play. In SCs your work doesn't show up on the stat chart (unless 2H dps). In RVR, getting RR is slower (at least my experience in playing dps vs snb tanks) unless you're 1/4 on a ram or the one guy on oil. For healers, you at least your effort show up in SC charts.

I think you'd see more snb tanks and heal-healers if the renown scaled up better, or there was some other mechanism to account for snb/heal contributions so that you got a bigger reward.

This would help, although I'm not sure exactly how to pull it off or what sort of 'stat' to display. Players/gamers generally across the board like to see some sort (preferably numerical) display of how good of a job they did, and there just isn't anything like that for tanks.

[emiliorv]

Hmm not sure, i usually finish vanq around 75-80. Might be because im exclusively a solo roamer in the lakes which means my renown per hour is probably higher than yours. Typically earn 100k/hour on Mag, WE, WL, dps AM and dps Sham (classes picked specifically to solo roam).

quote from the thread: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=37910&p=410992#p410992

100k RP/hour => i cant beat that (even in my wet dreams) playing as a healer...

[kmark101]

....

What do you think?

Cool thread. Since you cited up tanks first, let me summarize the obvious briefly.

IB - outdated class, ancient as the dwarf race itself, that literally received 0 improvements or changes (not sure if its good or bad, looking at knights...), but the mechanic is extremely outdated, the numbers are overwritten by a simply knight aura. Also, being one of the only class that deals physical damage type only, the armor creep hit the class extremely hard. LOTS of people play IB's in hope's to be the next Volgograd, but those times are long gone alongside with conq level gear and this comes with disappointment. Currently you can't debuff a destro mdps below armor cap anymore. The class simply needs tweaks with it's flat numbers. I have written several proposals about this, none of them was heard I think. WB viability was always a problem of this class, that should be looked at too imho.

Knight - devs just nerfed this class hardcore a few months ago, honestly what did we expect? It's pair, the chosen is a SUPERIOR dps machine now in small man thanks to the spirit damage type tactic AND the fact that destro has 4 classes that can debuff spirit damage, while Order has only the knight's own measy aura to debuff elemental resist for -130. Is this an overlook or intentional, I can't figure out, BUT knight supposed to be the physical dps, hence was Runefang weaponskill ingredient AND precision strike. So now we have a badass tank who is same unkillable in wb play AND also does top dps in small man, versus a nerfed tank who does no damage in any spec... and we are wondering why ppl tend to chose the first class? It has NOTHING to do with aesthetics, people simply shelved their knights in disappointment. +15% healing sounds nice, it's dogshit compared to chosen's arsenal as a class.

SM - Aesthetics are a problem here, I mean a tank class in skirts only? Besides the numbers are ok here, but lack of a single target punt makes it not desirable for small man, while its damage is not near on the BO level, no self morale pump, etc.. again, a huge disparity in balance.

Tanks are only the top of the iceberg, a symptom only. The REAL reason is how the game plays out now as more and more people figured out that on one side you can get along with minimal organization and with semi-organized warbands reach extremely good results, while on the other side you need pixel-proof-elite-movement-timing-everything-perfectly-always play AND then you still can't be sure you can win due to certain skills, such as:

- Choppa pull... in a game with collision detection and physical tank-body lines, this skill is gamebreaker. I mean even with your best ever movement, EVENTUALLY you will get pulled. And what the player/class needs to do for this? Push 1 button... no positioning, no reaction, no class resource usage, nothing. Just a button push. Not hard to imagine why one side is easier to play. This totally breaks most tank lines on pugs/semi-pugs, hence Order loses all non fully organized warband sieges. All of them now, without exception.

- Morale imbalance... this was described countless times. It doesn't matter which side can do 15% more damage or healing generally, when the time comes (exactly at 40 seconds in an encounter), even semi-organized destro pugs can drop their pumped morale, this is what we are witnessing in recent city sieges now, it's so easy to practice on destro that now almost everyone can do it. In tight spaces like in city, order simply has no tool to counter it in any way, except for movement, but then look at the previous point... morales are deciding most battles and Order has a super hard time here. This should be the top balance topic imho (I'd honestly remove all drain/pump from classes... the only way would be to achieve morale faster should be with gear +morale only... boom issue solved and suddenly balanced for all ides)

- Extremely overtuned melee SH's... a class/spec that has huge dps/hugesurvivability/hugeutlity in a single build... I mean wtf... possibly super fun to play, but really balanced?

Maybe there is some more. Sadly, I can't list anything on Order side that has such a huge effect on the overall gameplay and balance, while there are some borderline OP skills, most of them has huge drawbacks (like Rampage resets your class resource to 0, hence you do **** damage for the next 10 seconds... an often overlooked "side effect"... or the often cited op WL damage, balanced with shitty survivability and requires active movement to be good).

[Wam]

This is nothing new though, order's main guilds prior sov release, and when we swapped to help them out and get a challenge earlier this year... suffered from the dreaded 3fg curse

You had some of the best guilds, and best leaders like VII is a good example, Erihon one of best pug leaders by a million miles compared to the rest... and they still had issues with recruitment... years before this CNTK was probably order's strongest guild and they had issues with recruitment of the right classes also.

Order has a very casual mindset, very zerg friendly, it shows in the lakes over and over again... when it comes to ranked sc's and cities... you see the difference... and no its not the classes or gear, it is composition and leadership. When we was playing our order alts we didn't have the issues other people's mains are apparently having... but that is because people are slow to adapt to changing meta and even when i give advice is falls on deaf ears, so basically destro play to their strengths order do not always play to theirs. They prefer to make weak excuses.

Then with Peon zerglings join the game, they help out order's numbers en mass so we farm some of our sov gear order side and go back home to our natural side, some of the zerglings adapt and understand fast... but majority no they will not even care besides whine about nerf this and nerf that without putting in any real effort.

Some order classes do need some love, but you can still put out competitive teams in current system. LOB do not have problems on order side, so its not a balance issue... its a learn to play and learn to composition issue, which destro have a easier time doing because of more synergised choice... but who in the right mind on order side thinks its a good idea to bring 4 archmages in the same warband or lol engi's and sw's... you already set yourself up for defeat before you begin by not caring enough about setup / gameplan / assist / synergy. (Again never utilizing strengths)

Order got untapped potential just the organisastional side across the board is a complete mess and it shows every city... that is the difference. Destro pugs even put more effort and understanding into setups than some of order guilds. You need to be very selective in what you bring if you want a good time, if you want to be care free and RNG its just like joining PUG SC and you get what you deserve. Refine your setups, be more disciplined and maybe order can be more competitive in cities... a few order groups have given us a decent fight (VII/Beaver Alliance, Mont... LOB will also) im sure a couple more can too. But knowing order like i do the status quo will remain because nobody wants to put in the work, just expect cake and eat it by simply showing up in rag tag army and demand end game gear.

[NSKaneda]

Haha! Give SW and WLs armor that looks like that and now we're getting somewhere! If you were to stand a WL next to a Choppa, I'm doubtful the casual observer would guess they're in the same armor class.

Beastlord tunic for SW has this look, mayhem has lamellar armour design, there are a few inf rewards with ornate(ish) breastplate on tunic look... And Onslaught/Vanquisher for sSW looks spot on - with Warlord being almost quintessential mamluk warrior. As for WLs everything above ruin gives that tankish look WL lore suggests (WLs being tanks and SMs being 2h mdps). And as for them being "frail" - well, they are elves, duh!

Personally I like how IBs and slayers look and believe you me - enraged, charging group of dwarves can make destro hesitate or rout

[orillah]

My thoughts is its just a logical, after all changes - nerfs/buffs, reworks.

Destro wb playstyle doesnt changed in all this years: blob-aoe-moralbomb.

On other hand order always have pretty strict wb setup, and pretty much all parts of this set up got nerfed over the time.
If the match isnt massively favors 1 side in terms of gear/composition, order tactics on game is usually just harder to pull in pugish environment. All this: "dont blob spread out, now come together bomb, we need this 1(or nonexistent) am somehow pump whole wb" requires far more communication than simple: stick together and bomb on my command.

[Vayra]

You cant do any of these things as a tank or a healer (specced as proper healer), these roles are binded to grp/wb gameplay...you cant go solo and profit.

You could on live, but according to Wargrimnir, they have very deliberately made that impossible for healers here to force them to group. Funny how they didn't do the same for dps. Imagine the outcry if you couldn't farm renown from running solo in the lakes. Might get some better balance between dps, tanks, and healers, though.

[Kloaner]

so this Topic mutate from Order looks ugly to Destro is OP as hell...