I Recorded 7 Days of City Scores

[Elvicof]

good indication that order players are sux.
like most sucky players tend to do, they blame everything other than themselves.
in this thread, main dishes are morale and class i think?

Like the losing side always blames everyone else except themselves.

The winning side tends to think they win because they are better rather than looking at the hole picture.

Balancing issue will always be in this game, it was always the case and probably will always be the case.

[Wam]

I dont want to be that guy... but someone has to set the record straight and stop this pity party once and for all. We went order, our lowbie alts to seek challenge of more organised guilds (no offence but order was simply not worthy enough of fight at the time and in such disarray pre peon zerg arriving and it showed during rvr raids) to help balance things out for server pop also...

First instance run a old school setup vs pnp, I tested somethings alot, it gave them alot of confidence... but you see instead of spend pointless energy complaining about destro bias and all that entitlement (we still won instance 3) I made drastic changes to our setup and learned the do's and do nots... but some people keep doing the same thing months and months after being farmed and it is just pure instanity repeating same mistakes and then crying to dev's to nerf opposition instead of spend this energy to improve self when the tools are there just not being utilized at all. Compo is so damn important but always gets overlooked.

I banned underperforming class, and seperated ORVR and CITY straight away as they are two different aspects stylistically... what i run in city order side is different to orvr, and same on destro side there is some classes which i would never ever consider for orvr but can make their way in city.

I see some people bring too many liability classes in their setups and expect to do alot better than reality... if you bring liability classes and they dont perform you are a fool for keep bringing liability classes and expecting different outcome.

I've fought so many different setups from both sides, maybe more than anyone else because i am a dirty x realmer so my experience and knowledge will have more variety and point of view from both sides. I've come against some groups who was positive and trying different approaches all the time never giving up and that was refreshing, because they had the right spirit just not the experience and gear and pulling off cleanly what they wanted... then there was other groups who was negative and entitled and so demoralized after one wipe, "they are full sov" "destro bias" "order bias" ... you know my guys are not full sov, we allowed order time to gear up first to make more of a challenge for ourselves.

I've lost only one instance when ive lead something organised, and that was to the best opposition of try hards when we was running a b setup... it wasnt even 8/8/8 it was 7/9/8 overstacked knights because (order is our alts and lowbies) not enough SM/RP too many WH and we almost wiped our enemy in first fight, against any other destro group we probably would of won too even with a slack composition by top tier standards. They celebrate/troll bait like won fa cup afterwards because we had already beaten some previously and maybe their setup wasn't on point then... but i do not need to celebrate just another victory. I brought a b setup, got b results, on order we lack the same flexibility (because our alts alts) and order feels a bit more rigid.

We killed other groups on order, and scoreline always suggests some domination, but fights are sometimes closer than people think and it comes down to fine margins and momentum / snowball effect and psychology half the time... So if we can achieve such things on our alts against all of destro's best... why cannot people achieve such things on their mains on order? there is no balance issue, it is a learn to play issue only, learn to organise... as a leader i have to put in alot of energy and time behind scenes to organise each city, if i dont it is going to be a XXXX show... then that is on me.

The main threat for us on order, will probably be the same people who was main threat for us on destro... because they are good players and know what it is up and adjust accordingly. If not them, then ourselves bringing B tier compo, or being tired asf at 5 am in the morning.
Not everyone is in the same boat, i see some people who've been solid and improved but i also didn't see those people crying on forums either so maybe they used their energy more productively on self improvement and refining their composition.

If your going to neglect certain area's of your composition then i got bad news for you, if you over stack or understack key areas then you are making a massive hole for your composition to fall into... but too many people do not see the problem in this area and its day 1 stuff, even destro pugs who are semi organised KNOW this and build around it and thats why they generally get better results, because they put in the work and build accordingly... they know what they want and don't take just any class to be a "filler". 8/8/8 is what you should aim for its how game was designed... and if you bring squishy healers who do not do their job do not reinvite them again, same for dps that are yolo and do not assist, same for tanks that dont know how to guard and follow and do the pure basics...

If you keep on reinviting people who fail you... 1) they will never learn 2) your going to have a rough time and everyone else suffers as a result of it. The saying you have to be cruel to be kind... like someone just ate a burger and got sauce all over their face do you tell them or leave them walk around like this...

We will eventually lose on destro too, nobody is unbeatable, complaceny will kill us more than anything... because some instances our enemy simply have no clue what they are doing, like bombling already pointed out the assist or lack of assist is simply astonishing from some groups which instant que.

We beat everyone of merit on our alts on order side and was fairly competitive... so how come destro so op??? These people may have improved eventually too on their mains and refined their composition more now because thats what you should do, instead of what some order chose to do like whine on forums and give misinformation to dev's in the hope of breaking game more instead of fix and give love to the classes which really need it. (SW/WELF/WH/ENGI/MAGI to name a few)

Good thing we went our ALTS TO PROVE IT CAN BE DONE... SO BALANCE IS FINE, it is teamplay issues...

TL DR : Its end game content, bring your best and don't complain about balance when we have already proved that order can be competitive on our alts... stop this pug mentality of I show up, I deserve win without putting in any work what so ever. "We are alliance wb we deserve to win" I could make a new guild with all rank 40/40's with other guilds the same and be alliance wb... and what is the point just because you have same alliance tag you deserve victory? lmao... what about your formation, composition, tactics, assisting ??? but nah just because you are a alliance wb you deserve auto win... these are attitudes ive seen and i know because i was watch stream of salty people who face us and leave their comms in.

Zerging in rvr doesnt prove you are good... you can hide alot of things with numbers/mass/lag/line of sight/body block etc...

If we was back on order it would most likely be another victory to order group and one less to destro, and also if we faced a decent premade... it would mean order random pug setup might have a better chance but still probably lose to semi organised destro pug setup because they balance their compo better and utilize tools more.

[emiliorv]

WP +20% healing
Knight +15% healing

WP and Knight tactics are massively overrated by Destro.

The outheal of order side is REAL, also these 2 classes are "core" in any city grp...so every order grp get +38% from WP heals and + 15% from any other heals. if you running 2xWP is +38% heal....is close to denny a -50% healdebuff

[vertolet]

Also, who made Order fall back into choke point and stack up nicely to get moral dropped ? I think only themselves, unless some other gravital magic force that i do not see...

they already lost 2-3 people after some seconds in the first encounter so pushing through wouldn't change here the result. I can understand that they don't want to push through when you already loose people.

Also why all those random AoE punts all the time, why Order keep saving enemy from taking damage on top of giving free immunity, which will allow destro to execute perfect moral drop... You need to punt when enemy wants to drop moral on your face. Here is example:

Interrupt just 3/4 morale dropps, delay them so your healers have time to cast heal, and u will not get one shotted, u survive, u counter, u win.

yes this AOE punts are horrible no doubt about that. But that is already the point when randoms fight against randoms you will always have these guys on both sides who give free immunity.

And this thundercats WB is not a random wb. Maybe they just had a random tank from lfg. So one or two guys runied the fight because immu is a big factor to counter a moral, it is especially a bigger problem for the side who will have the moral later.

If you delay some moral through AOE punt doesn't mean that you direct win it just mean that you dont loose at this moment and it raise your own chance to win.
Moral often decide fights. The side who get it first has a higher chance to win because they can use the tool to win the fight as first.
It is easier for the side who do something then for the side who need to react on something.

Thats it.

[Telen]

At lower tiers rdps and dps healers were always very strong on live. Problem is most of the development was done during that time. Now were at end game. The game hasnt been balanced with that in mind. Really there should have been no balancing at all until this point.

[Wam]

At lower tiers rdps and dps healers were always very strong on live. Problem is most of the development was done during that time. Now were at end game. The game hasnt been balanced with that in mind. Really there should have been no balancing at all until this point.

A sorc or BW can do fine in city if they know how to play... but you have to be top tier and know how to fight while being focused.

Magi/Engi got more issues and its related to their pet mechanic and how easy that is to counter and how static they are in comparison to other rdps

Dps healers well ZDPS/Runiedps was team players but got nerfed hard pre cities and if they was still that strong people would cry for them to be nerfed too... so now they are junk... as for the other dps healers AM is solo guy, shammy depends, lol 2h wp... and dps dok also slightly nerfed but can still function.

SH - got MSH, and SW needs a bit of love ...

So balance is fairly fine for ranged, just too many are use to stationary fights at keep defenses and not kiting melee trains whilst doing their job of being a dps and applying pressure...

[wonshot]

Wam Morale 5 drop

Good post Wam, and nice insight. But one factor that I think you are overlooking, and its probably more credit to you as a leader than its a downside, is that your guild is Stacked! Players from previous warbands guilds have all flocked to TUP soaking out the competition when just on pure guild-roster lineup you outmatch any other warband guild on the server. Sure all roster have weaker links, but you are the Real Madrid of RoR warbands right now Again, nothing but credit for the work you have put in.

But when we are looking at the overall data for winning instances as Dan posted in the original post, we have to look at what could be behind these datasources. And that does involve a whole lot of pug vs pug, pug vs premade, and premade vs premade (as you mostly represent)

51-60% winrate favor is not too massive, and many factors can play into this outcome. Like the layout of stage3, RNG factor of who gets champion, some comps and classes benefit from suddenly having 4x 100k guys etc etc. But when its a consistant edge to one realm I personally find it facinating to talk and think about whay could be the underlining reasons.

Now do Order have room for improving, and could they easily make up the difference in playing better? Absolutely! From own experience and observations the order guilds / cityband leaders have found out what comp they like to play and built their loyal following. Shoutout to Fenryl who made double ASW work around his class and shotcalling. Where as others are more experimental and inexperienced but keep coming back (Rolgrom is up and coming, as the video clip previously linked show) Plenty of room to catch up on other's experience and figure out from defeat and firsthand experience how to run the show.

Any veteran who remembers Live Cities could had predicted that the BW stacking from orvr would get overtaken by 2fg aoe frontline presure and 2fg melee backline presure, ventureing into more 6man upscaled playstyle. So no surpiced all the 6man ego boybands feel cooky stomping the warbandshitting htl guildbot players (myself included)

As for the topic of why or how destro is winning more instances. its probably a mixture of a lot of things mentioned already in this topic. But I agree its not unsolveable by players on eitherside. However the 5-10% more winrate is there for a reason not to be ignored.

[anarchypark]

i'm just saying data is not enough to have any meaning.
didn't intend to offend anyone.
blame language barrier plz if anyone felt bad.

[Jeliel80]

And when he can't stack all his guild he has Hao (and or viceversa), so a bit hard to fail in that context...

And yeah sure Order can do pretty well, setups are way more rigid and you need better players on average to make it work, at least imho.

But all that said, destro has an undeniable huge morale advantage and order has to play around.

And often cited foc. mending, ex. def. (that is a proc and is very rarely up in city) and funnel power are vastly overestimated and don't even remotely compensate for that.
Plus destro tend to forget -25% perma hd from chosen (kotbs outgoing isn't as easy and as good).

So yeah, I think during the years small changes accumulated and swayed the balance slightly in destro favor... now that isn't even remotely as big as orderling complain, but it's not L2P as destro would like to have it!

Just my 2c.

[billyk]

Problems for Order:
1. Destro classes are better than their Order counterparts
2. Destro has less useless classes than Order (Destro: WE, Order: WH, SW, AM)
3. Destro gets an advantage during match making (Always 2-3x more healers)

Of course Destro will deny this since they don't want to lose their advantage and don't want to admit they're just as skill-less as Order and are just carried by mechanical advantages.

Evidence for this: Order generally wins in places were class vs class and zerging don't matter (eg. SCs like Thunder Valley where you can just avoid the enemy), Destro generally wins in places where you can force the opponent to fight (eg. Cities). Also the little fact that everyone who denies it one here is Destro main.