[WE] OYK vs Dragon Gun

[teiloh]

OYK! hits twice, which is double the chance to crit, double the chance to proc other effects (Jagged Edge, FTHQ, weapon procs) and I need to parry BOTH hits to avoid the KD. It is a more than reasonable 'mirror' to Dragon Gun.

If your healers are standing close enough that one Dragon Gun is keeping a heal debuff on them, that's not the ability's fault.

Yep. Factors that are too often overlooked.

[roadkillrobin]

Pretty much all procs was nerfed in this way a couple years ago. Mostly due to a guild found a way to exploit Engineers and turrets and giving their machinegun and instant cast skill a insande dps output with BW's proc trough Crown of Fire and the dmg increase for proc tactic. So instead of fixing the turret gaining all BW procs benefits they nerfed dmg procs across the board with a ICD making them unable to function on percentage base on AoE hit. Better would be to have ICD on individual hostile targets, rather then on output of the player casting the skill.

The player output ICD on procs is one of the worst implementations done imo.

[jokerspsycho]

Pretty much all procs was nerfed in this way a couple years ago. Mostly due to a guild found a way to exploit Engineers and turrets and giving their machinegun and instant cast skill a insande dps output with BW's proc trough Crown of Fire and the dmg increase for proc tactic. So instead of fixing the turret gaining all BW procs benefits they nerfed dmg procs across the board with a ICD making them unable to function on percentage base on AoE hit. Better would be to have ICD on individual hostile targets, rather then on output of the player casting the skill.

The player output ICD on procs is one of the worst implementations done imo.

I feel like each damage on hit buff is seperate (might all be coded together I'm not sure) so removing an icd off kisses and keeping icd other skills that share their damage with friendlies (bw buffs, convents, etc). And iirc, something like dok damage buff was only on a 1s icd yes? Kisses are on 2s icd I thought (could be wrong) best way I would think to do something like that is giving it a PPM limit. so it can proc 60 times in a minute, using OYK could, potentially, use up multiple of those procs in one timestamp to apply the debuff to multiple people (25% chance per person obv).

[dirnsterer]

OYK! hits twice, which is double the chance to crit, double the chance to proc other effects (Jagged Edge, FTHQ, weapon procs) and I need to parry BOTH hits to avoid the KD. It is a more than reasonable 'mirror' to Dragon Gun.

If your healers are standing close enough that one Dragon Gun is keeping a heal debuff on them, that's not the ability's fault.

I would argue the double hit is kind of the point for it being able to proc on both hits with finishers, increases the chances of the proc. Still it is a chance.

[Sarnai]

OYK! hits twice, which is double the chance to crit, double the chance to proc other effects (Jagged Edge, FTHQ, weapon procs) and I need to parry BOTH hits to avoid the KD. It is a more than reasonable 'mirror' to Dragon Gun.

If your healers are standing close enough that one Dragon Gun is keeping a heal debuff on them, that's not the ability's fault.

I would argue the double hit is kind of the point for it being able to proc on both hits with finishers, increases the chances of the proc. Still it is a chance.

The kisses proc plenty enough as it is. The fastest a WH can hit with his bullets is spamming absolution, which is roughly 2 seconds (gcd, ability to build accusation, gcd give or take) and that dumps our resource on a shitty 1-spike finisher. WEs kisses are proccing just as fast and they don't have to dump their resource to do it.

[jokerspsycho]

OYK! hits twice, which is double the chance to crit, double the chance to proc other effects (Jagged Edge, FTHQ, weapon procs) and I need to parry BOTH hits to avoid the KD. It is a more than reasonable 'mirror' to Dragon Gun.

If your healers are standing close enough that one Dragon Gun is keeping a heal debuff on them, that's not the ability's fault.

I would argue the double hit is kind of the point for it being able to proc on both hits with finishers, increases the chances of the proc. Still it is a chance.

The kisses proc plenty enough as it is. The fastest a WH can hit with his bullets is spamming absolution, which is roughly 2 seconds (gcd, ability to build accusation, gcd give or take) and that dumps our resource on a shitty 1-spike finisher. WEs kisses are proccing just as fast and they don't have to dump their resource to do it.

While I want the ICD removed I agree with this. I think it would be fine for kisses to proc on aoe skills, but only on your intended target feel like that would be ok. Classes dont need to be 100% mirrored (even though I would love BaL over SS and having vanish in right tree not middle) and this keeps them both with their own flavor.

Do think WE finishers need to be increased a bit in damage (frenzied Mayhem was nerfed iirc in the past), not much, and made melee maybe aside from RA if you want to make that a throwing dagger finisher since the animation looks almost like you're flinging daggers at the person.

[Starx]

Reading this thread just makes me more glad i deleted my rr77 WE.

No one is even really addressing the main point here or doesnt even understand it.

If up to this point you didnt OP and the WE community has found that kisses will only proc on a single target even with aoe abilities. That is to say I can spam slice and oyk but only 1 person will ever get debuffed. If you dont understand why that is a massive problem in city then.... yikes is all I really have to say.

[teiloh]

The kisses proc plenty enough as it is. The fastest a WH can hit with his bullets is spamming absolution, which is roughly 2 seconds (gcd, ability to build accusation, gcd give or take) and that dumps our resource on a shitty 1-spike finisher. WEs kisses are proccing just as fast and they don't have to dump their resource to do it.

IMO there is design and balance space for the ICD to be removed and WE restored to live-like proc rates. If indeed this was a blanket nerf to ICD because of machine gun turrets of all things, it might be a time for a review of how that has impacted overall game balance.

Witch Hunter's should have some other feature that balances out the Kiss/Bullet situation. A handful of ranged builders that proc bullets perhaps?

[sighy]

I agree with the general theme that 2s ICD on kisses is too harsh, but ultimately it won't get any attention, because "WE are not an aoe class so it doesn't matter" stance some people of influence have. And I agree that it should be icd on individual target would likely be the best compromise.

It's just that some people don't seem to realize just how incompatible vision for this class and vision for the game at large are incompatible. (the good ol 1v1 class, in a game where you are not meant to 1v1)

[thomas1995]

Hilarious how WE wants to be superior as a ST and as a AOE mirror versus WH.