thank you all for believing that some testing was done before asking the question.
[Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Please dabbart do you really think the test was only done on one skill? It's just an example to introduce the subject
thank you all for believing that some testing was done before asking the question.
thank you all for believing that some testing was done before asking the question.
Last edited by hogun on Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Look, it's crazy.
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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Haha, i don't even need to read more than 1 post of this thread to know people not understanding the calculation of mainstat and toughness dependent on used skill. Also the mitigation formula of toughness...
And i'm pretty sure someone even tried to explain it somewhere on this 3 pages without success
Good luck guys...
And i'm pretty sure someone even tried to explain it somewhere on this 3 pages without success
Good luck guys...
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Wiede thank you for your very useful intervention
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(KOBS,WH,WP,BW,SW,WL,SM,BO,CHOSEN,SH,MAGUS, MARAU ,CHOP,SHAM )40+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJx3So8q6o
DAMMAZ KRON !
Hogun - IB 80+ Hoguun RP 80+ Hogunn ING 80+ HOG Slayer 80+ Gor IB 2M 50
(KOBS,WH,WP,BW,SW,WL,SM,BO,CHOSEN,SH,MAGUS, MARAU ,CHOP,SHAM )40+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyJx3So8q6o
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Well, the point of this entire thread is that _no one_ does, or if they do it isn't common knowledge, so yes, you're correct. Specifically, I don't know how Toughness impacts damage calculations. You claim to, but your numbers still don't add up for me.Your numbers don't add up, because you don't understand how damage is calculated.
That *still* doesn't help reconcile these numbers:Radiance lance is a 2s cast. [condescending comment removed] More seconds in the cast, the higher main stat is utilized, and the higher Toughness is utilized. A 2s cast, against 665 toughness = -266dps (approx 133 -dps from toughness [665/5]x2)
>Toughness 665.
>DD: Archmage's Radiant Lance hits you for 477 damage. (313 mitigated)
>DoT: Archmage's Law of Conductivity hits you for 322 damage. (29 mitigated)
By your reasoning, the 313 mitigated somehow comes from the -266 number. That's a variance of +18%, so... I guess that's resaonable? Seems a bit high to me.
While the 'instant cast' DoT is mitigated for 203 (29*7 ticks) dps, which should again come from the -266 number which is -24%. Though how you apply 'dps' to 'instant' of course is going to matter here. (naively -10dps over 0 seconds ('instant') is -0dps! no mitigation - which sis clearly wrong)
So I *still* don't see how those add up.
Yes! More data would help! I'd love it if @Grimnur would post the relevant combat log portions (including full DoT ticks) of multiple tests instead of just a summary.again, stat benefits and weapon DPS differ from ability to ability, and damage isn't a static number so they wont add up perfectly all of the time. Which is why you gotta run the test 10-100 times to get avg numbers.
I looked on RoR builder but I couldn't find an instant AM dps ability, which is why I suggested trying a test with a BW's Nova.[more condescending comments removed] Try the Instant AM dps ability.
Wait, I thought duration didn't matter to mitigation? Only cast time? Though testing vs a DoT with a cast time would be useful too - though a quick search of the AM and BW abiltiies didn't turn one up.Or compare a DoT to another DoT with different duration.
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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
I think storm of chronos is instant if I remember it right.zachary wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:24 pmWell, the point of this entire thread is that _no one_ does, or if they do it isn't common knowledge, so yes, you're correct. Specifically, I don't know how Toughness impacts damage calculations. You claim to, but your numbers still don't add up for me.Your numbers don't add up, because you don't understand how damage is calculated.
That *still* doesn't help reconcile these numbers:Radiance lance is a 2s cast. [condescending comment removed] More seconds in the cast, the higher main stat is utilized, and the higher Toughness is utilized. A 2s cast, against 665 toughness = -266dps (approx 133 -dps from toughness [665/5]x2)
>Toughness 665.
>DD: Archmage's Radiant Lance hits you for 477 damage. (313 mitigated)
>DoT: Archmage's Law of Conductivity hits you for 322 damage. (29 mitigated)
By your reasoning, the 313 mitigated somehow comes from the -266 number. That's a variance of +18%, so... I guess that's resaonable? Seems a bit high to me.
While the 'instant cast' DoT is mitigated for 203 (29*7 ticks) dps, which should again come from the -266 number which is -24%. Though how you apply 'dps' to 'instant' of course is going to matter here. (naively -10dps over 0 seconds ('instant') is -0dps! no mitigation - which sis clearly wrong)
So I *still* don't see how those add up.
Yes! More data would help! I'd love it if @Grimnur would post the relevant combat log portions (including full DoT ticks) of multiple tests instead of just a summary.again, stat benefits and weapon DPS differ from ability to ability, and damage isn't a static number so they wont add up perfectly all of the time. Which is why you gotta run the test 10-100 times to get avg numbers.
I looked on RoR builder but I couldn't find an instant AM dps ability, which is why I suggested trying a test with a BW's Nova.[more condescending comments removed] Try the Instant AM dps ability.
Wait, I thought duration didn't matter to mitigation? Only cast time? Though testing vs a DoT with a cast time would be useful too - though a quick search of the AM and BW abiltiies didn't turn one up.Or compare a DoT to another DoT with different duration.
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Think best way forward is to post this on bug tracker and let the devs have this discution
Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.
Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.
Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.
A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.
Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.
Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.
Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.
A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.
Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.
Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
While it is true, the question is the following- if am casts a specific dot, then casts it again while having 100 more intel- does the dmg added by 100 intel is the same, as the dmg removed by target having 100 extra toughness, vs same specific dot? If its the same, then all fine, if however 100 intel isn't equal 100 toughness then there is a problem.Dabbart wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:58 pm Toughness has nothing to do with %s. it is a FLAT amount. % is irrelevant. Armor/Resistance works via %, NOT toughness. If an ability hits for 600 or 6k base amount, toughness will reduce the same amount. It is a Flat Reduction.
Abilities take DIFFERENT lvls of contribution from attack stat/weapon DPS. it is NOT a direct 1-1. Some abilities have a higher base rate and less stat/weapon DPS, some work the other way.
Damage numbers are not static. Attack a target 10 times. You will see how you get different results. Hence why you should compare averages, not a single picked instance, and why there will be variance.
A casted ability adds it's attack stat/weapon DPS more than an instant. They also take Toughness reduction at a greater rate. Hence why we discuss them as DPS. Emphasis on the Per Second.
Lastly, Toughness can not reduce an attack to 0 or 1. There is a cap to damage reduced to stop people with 200 attack stat hitting derp tanks for 1 damage. This is obviously not an issue here however.
Last try at this... I can't physically be anymore clear.
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Re: [Theorycrafting] Toughness is broken (or useless) for DoTs
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