SC almost dead

[adamthelc]

You can always do something to get better. Always striving to get better by taking a critical look at yourself and your group is what it takes to be a decent player. There is a ceiling for how good people can realistically be though. Some people have a much lower ceiling than others.

I understand the desire to try and be as competitive as possible. Getting the most that you can out of your character and group is what everyone should aspire to. But considering the reallity of the population is it really that fun?

Is it more fun to try and be the most competitive group as possible and get no real competition? Or is it more fun to worry less about to try and get the most competitive match as possible and not worry as much about being the very best. Ideally you could have both, but how realistic is that right now? If you are spending a lot of time worrying about how you are rewarded for skunking people, you probably arent getting consistently competitive matches.

I would never presume to tell someone else how they should enjoy the game, especially when they are playing the game how it should ideally be played. But doesnt it get boring beating people in to the dirt over and over at a certain point? Personally I would rather lose a lot of games that are kind of close than constantly be bored.

A lot of rambling with no clear point. I am saying you have to consider the reallity of the game. You arent going to get very far if you view everything idealistically. That goes for everyone, not one specific group of people.

Glaring issues should be addressed. Minor issues people should learn to deal with.

[peterthepan3]

I would never presume to tell someone else how they should enjoy the game, especially when they are playing the game how it should ideally be played. But doesnt it get boring beating people in to the dirt over and over at a certain point? Personally I would rather lose a lot of games that are kind of close than constantly be bored.

Of course it is. Why do you think I petitioned time and time again to incentivise the premade SC? Getting more of the tryhards fighting one another with cool rewards/prestige/ladder/whatever will ultimately end up benefitting the casual population, too, as you'll have less premades farming the normal SC if they are encouraged to queue up for the competitive one(s). As it stands right now, it's no wonder that tryhards are queuing for all SC, given that a) you'll be lucky to even get the competitive SC to pop, and b) rewards are not too different at all, which begs the question 'Why bother?' for a lot of the newer groups.

BGs in WoW became a hell of a lot more open to all when Ranked BGs became a thing, as tryhards would devote their time into the Ranked BGs instead, leaving a lot of the normal BGs largely comprised of more casual players. The same would also happen here, if people were given sufficient encouragement (for example, RBGs would give you unique mounts after 75/150/300 wins, and Arenas would give you custom mounts, custom gear, and custom titles).

[flintboth]

Scenario populations will grow up for sure in future if you make balanced scenario brackets (one for the level 40 and two others brackets or three for the low level characters).
They will comes back because that will make more fair in fights and scenarios will pop more often.

Gear balance is an other step "for me" to balance scenarios fights but famers here are not ready to heard anything about their "little advantageous tools".
I have log my choppa today, is "full vanquisher", has two good weapons + 4 genesis jewels (that would have made to you a second ass hole if I had written "5" ! (sorry for the expression)), I have join the scenarios queue as a solo player and I have play two scenarios.
It was so easy to kill low level.
Archmage, Warrior Priest, Slayers...
I was surprised how easy it was to kill others characters.
At certain time I have see a Shadow Warrior 5 or 10 feet away from my choppa losing half of his Hit Points from my DoT and my auto attack % buffs... (I want to be clear, there was not a Sorceress behind me, I m sure)
Really I was full of shame to have used to win a gear so over powered who make me as player "a bad fat exploiter"(for me), I like fair battle and I respect my enemy here it was only about easy mode and outrageous disrespect against "the spirit of the game".
I really think to take back my conqueror set or the annihilator one, I don't want to lose my "game play" using this evil tools.
For me, the DPS class in the scenarios have to learn with the experience how to focus the good enemy with others realm mates to be able to defeat them one after the other (to methodically reducing theirs interactions and theirs effectiveness) and finaly win the scenario because of the "group play", it is what I m looking for in a mmo game; And not to be able to kill enemies when I hit them as solo (in a scenario) because they are low level characters and to prevent the interaction between the others players because of the overpower granted to my character.

As I say I was running those scenarios as solo players, how powerfull all that gear + jewels + weapons is in a group well composed (take the current OP characters, theory crafting, tactic and friendly characters abilities...) AND in a group characters only level 40 !

If you really want more players to form groups and to join your groups, to fights against, for more competitiveness make battle more fair and players will be back for...
But if you persist to farm others players with unfair tools all you will gain it is a total rejection and less players to play against you and with you (players don't like to farm others players).

A scenario queue dedicated for level characters 40 only will be less frequented than the others brackets but it will be more frequented by real competitiveness boyz and more frequented than what is going on for the scenarios today and more "well played" like your game conception (because high characters with more rr = more chance to have an experienced player).

[OldSparky]

Getting your **** kicked in repeatedly in a single play session is kind of a **** system. In a small community where you know before you get to the first objective how this is all going to play out reflects badly on the small community that perpetuates this problem.

It's indicative of poor and/or unorganised players losing vs better and/or organised players - nothing more. If people are getting their **** kicked in on the regular then perhaps we should be asking them why they are seemingly so content to let it happen? Masochism? Some form of BDSM? I mean, there are some very easy steps (won't bore everyone regurgitating the same **** we should all know by now) to take to alleviate these daily ass-poundings, so why are we not encouraging people to take these steps?

The only segment of the community that it reflects badly on is the side who keep queuing, expecting things to change miraculously. The people doing the ass-pounding (as a direct result of getting organised, synergising comps, often going on comms, using the /assist function, using their Guards properly, healing, etc.) are just playing the game, as far as I'm concerned. Getting your ass beaten is a normal occurrence in PvP games: the question, however, then becomes whether you're actually gonna do something about it (finetune your spec, make friends, get better, stop queuing for all SC as as solo player, etc.), or are you gonna cry to the Heavens instead.

Let's start calling out people for expecting miraculous results for sloppy/unorganised play.

People are not content with getting their **** kicked in. They want a fair fight. The scenario matchmaking can only go so far on it's own while keeping the speed of pops reasonable.

They continue coming back because, like everyone else still here that aren't masochists, they enjoy the game as a whole, despite the **** they have to endure.

Acknowledgement that being farmed 500-0 as a really bad thing for player enjoyment paints the picture why we're getting code in to deal with it.

How well a player is organized or geared is up to them. If you are so geared and organized that you can cause sadistic misery on a wide enough scale that people would rage quit as a realm, congratulations, you've won. You can stop playing now. Mission accomplished. Ride off into the sunset knowing that you beat the game.

Of course, if you're so organized and competent, you might realize that incessantly beating people into the sand repeatedly who stand no real chance at matching your epic gear and elite skills, does not actually encourage most people to tryhard. A few, maybe, and we've heard that feedback for sure. But playerbases are not elitist in large amounts, they're casual. Even the niche PvP games.

We would rather have the community grow in population, skill will come in time, and you have your own playground to show off how big **** you are. Maybe we disable domination there and let you have your safe space.

Dear Wargrimnir, hear me out:

Ofc people don't like having their **** kicked in, it's obvious. But here's the thing:
Rather than encouraging the mentality of "hey, now sc's are gonna end faster AND winners will get smaller rewards because of it, we're doing anything to protect YOU - the random player having a problem because he/she/whatever just had **** kicked in because he/she/whatever queued without a right mindset and can't handle it", you IMO should be there (as a team) to encourage "enjoy your gameplay, learn the game, gather your friends to improve said gameplay, we'd love to see you play, progress and provide valuable feedback so we can make experience better for everyone" mentality.

Keep patching the game, keep fixing the bugs, but holy crap, don't make people ready to poop out a planet out of frustration because you (as a team) poorly implemented a system supposed to keep at bay something that's not an absolutely outrageous occurence in a game focusing alot on PvP, especially when people have that tendency to GROUP UP (you can only tone it down by concluding SCs faster, making it less miserable for everyone, otherwise it's fair game anytime, anywhere). It's not about being an elitist or anything, it's about the MMORPG genre as a whole, which surprisingly, revolves around playing AND interacting with community (including pvp), but if one wants to go solo, that's fine as well, but still try make sure to interact with the community, even if it's just the means to an end.

As for the, unfortunately, completely biased and based purely on opinion and misconception, 2h tanks: no need to punish those people for their preferred playstyle by lumping them in with all the DPS characters for the sake of SC queue. Personally, I used to run the "pseudo-dps" tank a long time ago (yes, i admit that, and i also admit it was a mother of a mistake), but here's the thing: as far as I've seen any decent 2h tank (not "dps tank" as we all know it's just not even close to reality) will STILL rely on outlasting his opponent in a fight rather than outdamaging said enemy, which is straight up impossible for even the highest dps of all the "dps tanks" (yes, I will use sarcastic quotation marks because I personally view "dps tanks" as nothing more than lack of knowledge, misinformation and a logical fallacy) of them all, and I believe if someone is legit trying to be an actual "dps tank" they are completely missing the point, because Warhammer Online offers better and more reliable options to deal alot of damage (especially in a group).

[wargrimnir]

Dear Wargrimnir, hear me out:

Ofc people don't like having their **** kicked in, it's obvious. But here's the thing:
Rather than encouraging the mentality of "hey, now sc's are gonna end faster AND winners will get smaller rewards because of it, we're doing anything to protect YOU - the random player having a problem because he/she/whatever just had **** kicked in because he/she/whatever queued without a right mindset and can't handle it", you IMO should be there (as a team) to encourage "enjoy your gameplay, learn the game, gather your friends to improve said gameplay, we'd love to see you play, progress and provide valuable feedback so we can make experience better for everyone" mentality.

Keep patching the game, keep fixing the bugs, but holy crap, don't make people ready to poop out a planet out of frustration because you (as a team) poorly implemented a system supposed to keep at bay something that's not an absolutely outrageous occurence in a game focusing alot on PvP, especially when people have that tendency to GROUP UP (you can only tone it down by concluding SCs faster, making it less miserable for everyone, otherwise it's fair game anytime, anywhere). It's not about being an elitist or anything, it's about the MMORPG genre as a whole, which surprisingly, revolves around playing AND interacting with community (including pvp), but if one wants to go solo, that's fine as well, but still try make sure to interact with the community, even if it's just the means to an end.

As for the, unfortunately, completely biased and based purely on opinion and misconception, 2h tanks: no need to punish those people for their preferred playstyle by lumping them in with all the DPS characters for the sake of SC queue. Personally, I used to run the "pseudo-dps" tank a long time ago (yes, i admit that, and i also admit it was a mother of a mistake), but here's the thing: as far as I've seen any decent 2h tank (not "dps tank" as we all know it's just not even close to reality) will STILL rely on outlasting his opponent in a fight rather than outdamaging said enemy, which is straight up impossible for even the highest dps of all the "dps tanks" (yes, I will use sarcastic quotation marks because I personally view "dps tanks" as nothing more than lack of knowledge, misinformation and a logical fallacy) of them all, and I believe if someone is legit trying to be an actual "dps tank" they are completely missing the point, because Warhammer Online offers better and more reliable options to deal alot of damage (especially in a group).

Hard to take you seriously when you start off with trash arguments that weren't made.

the mentality of "hey, now sc's are gonna end faster AND winners will get smaller rewards because of it, we're doing anything to protect YOU - the random player having a problem because he/she/whatever just had **** kicked in because he/she/whatever queued without a right mindset and can't handle it"

This is not the mentality we have. I've been clear about what we intend and why.

In a situation where the losing team stands no chance at winning (based on the variables we can check), Domination triggers. These checks involve the kill advantage the winning team has in comparison to the losing team, and the amount of points scored by the losing team. There is a grace period during the first few minutes of the scenario.

Domination does two things. Provides a buff to the losing team (it has always done this, although in only a few scenarios), and increases the tick rate of the timer.

The reason for the buff is to allow the losers to have a chance at turning the fight. We've found this buff does not repair the damage done to the morale of the losing team in general, and even with it there is rarely a reversal of domination (again, in the few scenarios it was active in).

The reason for the increased tick rate is to end the scenario more quickly, as what we commonly see based on these variables is a group of players pinned into their camp, or trickling into the enemy team with no ability to secure kills or objectives.

The reason we've made these changes is to discourage this behavior from teams that would either
a. Pin a group of defenders in their warcamp and ignore objectives to farm them for kills
b. Sit on top of an objective and ignore it to force defenders to run into their group, also being farmed for kills.

What we've also observed with groups like this, is they're generally stubborn enough to wait out a 15 minute timer rather than enjoy the game. Meaning, they will ignore the objectives for the entire duration of the timer as previously it would tick up their points to 500 before the end of the match for no good reason at all. Why do any objectives if you can get the kills the entire match to pad your renown AND you get the winning bonus and 500 points for free on top of it?

The removal of the upticking score is unfortunate, as it allowed well deserved matches to end with appropriate rewards for both teams. However, it's very much a core part of why these groups felt the 15 minute farm was worth the rewards in the end. Perhaps we will re-introduce it for scenarios where the score is close in the final minutes of the scenario.

you IMO should be there (as a team) to encourage "enjoy your gameplay, learn the game, gather your friends to improve said gameplay, we'd love to see you play, progress and provide valuable feedback so we can make experience better for everyone" mentality.

No, we as the team are developing the framework that the community can grow and progress with. The existing framework was frequently so one-sided people would straight up uninstall the game. The community at large is quite supportive, but it only takes a handful of players doing their worst to ruin the game for others. We simply can't have systems that reward you for doing so. We certainly aren't looking to cater to "everyone", at least not equally.

Regarding what you think our priorities should be, we largely don't care. Never have. If our priorities align with yours, that's great. If they don't, that's just too bad.

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank. I feel it's a bit disingenuous to state otherwise, but maybe that's just my clearly uneducated mind or personal bias or ignorance or some other creative way to call me an idiot.

[dansari]

My favorite is when domination triggers, even when you're running the objective trying to win.. or when two premades meet in a scenario and domination still triggers, while trying to run the objective.

[Sulorie]

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank.

Excuse me but a tank in sc does the same job with either weapon - defend their teammates by guarding and CC enemies. To fulfill this job it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The key feature of shield tanks is HtL, which is not required in sc with the low player numbers you face there and the lack of aoe bombing.
Those tanks could spec defensive, use defensive armor sets and still count as "dps tank" due to their weapon, while they have 300 str?

I hope it doesn't only scan for weapon and tree, because there is no "dps tree" as you pick utility and not damage, as to deal damage you have to spec according in renown and wear offensive items.
Otherwise I think the approach to detect dps tanks is a wrong one.

[bichka]

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank.

Excuse me but a tank in sc does the same job with either weapon - defend their teammates by guarding and CC enemies. To fulfill this job it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The key feature of shield tanks is HtL, which is not required in sc with the low player numbers you face there and the lack of aoe bombing.
Those tanks could spec defensive, use defensive armor sets and still count as "dps tank" due to their weapon, while they have 300 str?

I hope it doesn't only scan for weapon and tree, because there is no "dps tree" as you pick utility and not damage, as to deal damage you have to spec according in renown and wear offensive items.
Otherwise I think the approach to detect dps tanks is a wrong one.

kinda disagree with you here. BG have best kd with shiled, BO can buff group for resists and armor by blocking damage, SM can undefendable punt someone when block triggered. I don't remember all tank skills which is triggered by block.

Also most of this loldps 2h is usually drops fast as mdps, especially in pugs. Tank with shiled is useful in scs and his main job to carry glass canon and push with him. Loldps 2h usually focused on their dps, not defense, so sometimes guard damage could kill them even faster than guarded will die. Especially with you are guarding someone like slayer.

In proper premades shield is probably overkill, but in pugs 2h simply fear to guard anyone or don't care. So in pugs, especially with 1 or no healers at all shield is still useful. Usually i don't have guard as WE even if there 3 tanks in group, so why this loldps should count as tanks? There no point to spec def for scs if you don't want to support dps or hold BO, but 2h is a different story. So threat them as dps is a right thingy, imho.

[Alfa1986]

/thread

Peter and Wargrmnir are both right, and that's the problem.

really? it is like more a doctor talking with a patient, one chouts - "give me all of them, I will kill them all, let everyone know how strong and invincible I am", the second replies -“u do, u can, just calm down, don't be nervous". "No, u have to give me a organized groupes, i must kill them all too", second replies -" u'll calm down or not, where i find to u organized groups at 3 o'clock in the night"?? "Then give me 1000 puggers, i will kill them".
"Assistant, give me my Colt 45 caliber, this is a hopeless case".
Very constructive and informative dialogue.

and it’s not a dispute at all who is better: pugs or prem@des, just the desires of some do not coincide with the possibility of others.

[TenTonHammer]

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank. I feel it's a bit disingenuous to state otherwise, but maybe that's just my clearly uneducated mind or personal bias or ignorance or some other creative way to call me an idiot.

Every time you guys say this and literally every time every one else’s says this idea is fundementally flawed and wrong, does this fall under balance proposal to make a stop this line of thinking? A game play concept that “2H tanks are real tanks too and not dps”?

What does a SnB tank do? Mitigate damage, provide cc, utility and assist dps

2H tanks can guard and mitigate damage, they’re cc is in some cases superior to SnB since their their kds are on demand and punts have shorter cds, utility options in 2H spec and provide assist dps

So what is the dividing line of differentiation? HTL and the extra chance to mitigate damage with block?

You guys even tried to nerf 2H tanks before rolling back because of community outcry because people preferred to use them as tanks in small scale over SnB tanks, the same small scale that is scenarios so you can see people have no problem with them there.

And really what justifies that 2H tanks are “dps”? Only 2 of the 6 tanks even have some form of 50% heal debuff, their dps is no where on par with “real”