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Balance Discussion Forum v3

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GoshDarn
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Posts: 105

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#71 » Wed May 08, 2019 2:29 am

My feedback will no longer be put into the "whine" category? Count me in.
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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
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Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#72 » Wed May 08, 2019 2:54 am

Feel free to not participate if you feel it's going to change nothing. Filtering through the feedback is hard enough as is, one less critical voice isn't going to bother us.

I've been in the background of the balance team since the first iteration on the forums, and there have certainly been mistakes. Before client control, that statement that balance was where proposals go to die, was simply a reality. We had very limited ability to make changes, did what we could, and learned quite a bit about the community. Towards the end of the first version, all kinds of strange things were getting implemented which was dismissed as burnout as opposed to malice. Then things went quiet until client control became a real thing.

In the last iteration of the balance forums, well, they stopped being used after a rather hostile period in our history, but TONS of items were worked on during that time anyway. Just not at a level of transparency that anyone wanted to sacrifice their time to present to you. Why? No idea. It seemed like the primary job of moderators to move threads, present changes, declare rejections. It wasn't my group at the time, just the writing on the wall. The most recent discussions you might note had been started around October. Most things by that point had gone internal, or even outside of RoR entirely to private groups who were doing all the discussion without any public community to scrutinize or participate. The balance forums were dead, any changes made were done without discussion and usually little explanation in the patch notes.

Things could have stayed that way. But I like structure. I feel the community that engages on the balance forums has a wide enough range of experience with various playstyles that ideas and conversations can be meaningfully had. Often times I think they're a bit stuck in their ways or have expectations that are unrealistic to be implemented, but I would rather slog through that mess than have no feedback at all. Cue Guard changes (also check out this thread where the same concept was discussed in regards to FO by some of the very loud detractors to the recent Guard change) that got tested for a week, were loudly rejected, but the in-game polls showed 50/50 split on opinion. There wasn't another topic presented for discussion from October, until the Guard changes came through. A change that was forced on the balance team after their refusal to even discuss it at any length, along with a few other issues that had been lingering for quite some time. Shortly after, that team dissolved.

That wasn't a great way to force balance changes, and the internal/non-RoR structure wasn't any better, so we took it back and decided even if engagement with the community was going to be a battle every time, even if we get the stones thrown at us, and the thorns jabbed in our sides, it's still worth leveraging this community for their feedback at very least before we push out significant changes. Engaging in the balance forums as a staff member is not a fun responsibility to have, and it's also one that requires a lot of trust. Not only that the people who are making recommendations for what avenues of balance we take are doing it in good faith, but also that they have the resolve to follow through with the responsibilities that come with it, whether or not they like the outcomes.

In the end, you are guests on the server. Anyone to take up a balance moderator role is still a moderator, not a developer. Even the developers answer to a handful of leads who are more roadblocks to new content than anything else, out of caution and having had our hands burned far too many times. I don't consider most guests I've ever had to be a bad thing at all. Relative to the health of the server, guests are downright required. So we will take the good with the borderline, and filter out the bad when they're unruly. The good might not agree with us, the borderline might serve as an overly critical sanity check, but anyone can have a good idea, and catching the eye of people specifically looking for good ideas really can't be all that hard.

So consider the balance forums however you want. I consider them a big wide net, with layers of nets beneath, that create a fine filter that hopefully only catches the gold we're looking for. That's going to look like a lot of rejected ideas, but hopefully when we get good ones, there will be some proper followup on a more regular basis. That's my goal at the very least.
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mursaat1337
Posts: 49

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#73 » Wed May 08, 2019 3:01 am

peterthepan3 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:28 am
mursaat1337 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:18 am giving filthy casuals more of a chance to make the game feel fun is not going to break the game, it actually will make small scale more challenging and fun instead of the afk till they win meta that it is now on whoever has a premade rolling on either faction.
No amount of balance changing will stop pugs from being farmed by premades when said pugs will still be queuing solo versus said premades.

Fun is also a very subjective term, and is not really a valid reason to make balance passes (quite possibly at the detriment of someone/something else). I'm also at a loss as to how such an approach, which (I assume) would be centered around casual players' enjoyment, would make the game more 'challenging' for everyone else.
use some imagination.
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NoRKaLKiLLa
Posts: 1020
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Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#74 » Wed May 08, 2019 4:23 am

Ysaran wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 3:51 pm
If I may ask: who are the top 10 player on RoR?
In no particular order:

Orkalli norkalli gorkalli morkalli gorekalli thorkalli sorkalli nquisitorkalli diskalli and sworkalli
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kiannas
Posts: 25

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#75 » Wed May 08, 2019 7:09 am

I could give some ideas, and frankly instead of crying nerf I rather the under performing class(es) were buffed to match the stronger..... honey/wine vs vinegar? And yes I do play both sides of a mirror, as a xrealm yahoo? no, I rvr 1 side, go to work get home and then run sc's the other if they aren't popping for the previous and that takes 5min to figure out. /siderantoff

I don't post my contempt for some staff that may deserve on 1 reason, this is NOT their job but a hobby. Some things are actrually artefacts from waay back when Mythic wrote the game, some of the devs are sort of working on that... time will tell and hopefully the discussion can be done politely and nobody gets cranky and swings the ban hammer if their OPness is gone and they have to work at it (expects own ban shortly =P)

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#76 » Wed May 08, 2019 7:24 am

Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:54 am Feel free to not participate if you feel it's going to change nothing. Filtering through the feedback is hard enough as is, one less critical voice isn't going to bother us.

I've been in the background of the balance team since the first iteration on the forums, and there have certainly been mistakes. Before client control, that statement that balance was where proposals go to die, was simply a reality. We had very limited ability to make changes, did what we could, and learned quite a bit about the community. Towards the end of the first version, all kinds of strange things were getting implemented which was dismissed as burnout as opposed to malice. Then things went quiet until client control became a real thing.

In the last iteration of the balance forums, well, they stopped being used after a rather hostile period in our history, but TONS of items were worked on during that time anyway. Just not at a level of transparency that anyone wanted to sacrifice their time to present to you. Why? No idea. It seemed like the primary job of moderators to move threads, present changes, declare rejections. It wasn't my group at the time, just the writing on the wall. The most recent discussions you might note had been started around October. Most things by that point had gone internal, or even outside of RoR entirely to private groups who were doing all the discussion without any public community to scrutinize or participate. The balance forums were dead, any changes made were done without discussion and usually little explanation in the patch notes.

Things could have stayed that way. But I like structure. I feel the community that engages on the balance forums has a wide enough range of experience with various playstyles that ideas and conversations can be meaningfully had. Often times I think they're a bit stuck in their ways or have expectations that are unrealistic to be implemented, but I would rather slog through that mess than have no feedback at all. Cue Guard changes (also check out this thread where the same concept was discussed in regards to FO by some of the very loud detractors to the recent Guard change) that got tested for a week, were loudly rejected, but the in-game polls showed 50/50 split on opinion. There wasn't another topic presented for discussion from October, until the Guard changes came through. A change that was forced on the balance team after their refusal to even discuss it at any length, along with a few other issues that had been lingering for quite some time. Shortly after, that team dissolved.

That wasn't a great way to force balance changes, and the internal/non-RoR structure wasn't any better, so we took it back and decided even if engagement with the community was going to be a battle every time, even if we get the stones thrown at us, and the thorns jabbed in our sides, it's still worth leveraging this community for their feedback at very least before we push out significant changes. Engaging in the balance forums as a staff member is not a fun responsibility to have, and it's also one that requires a lot of trust. Not only that the people who are making recommendations for what avenues of balance we take are doing it in good faith, but also that they have the resolve to follow through with the responsibilities that come with it, whether or not they like the outcomes.

In the end, you are guests on the server. Anyone to take up a balance moderator role is still a moderator, not a developer. Even the developers answer to a handful of leads who are more roadblocks to new content than anything else, out of caution and having had our hands burned far too many times. I don't consider most guests I've ever had to be a bad thing at all. Relative to the health of the server, guests are downright required. So we will take the good with the borderline, and filter out the bad when they're unruly. The good might not agree with us, the borderline might serve as an overly critical sanity check, but anyone can have a good idea, and catching the eye of people specifically looking for good ideas really can't be all that hard.

So consider the balance forums however you want. I consider them a big wide net, with layers of nets beneath, that create a fine filter that hopefully only catches the gold we're looking for. That's going to look like a lot of rejected ideas, but hopefully when we get good ones, there will be some proper followup on a more regular basis. That's my goal at the very least.
Ppl will give it a try as always but unless you dont open you eyes of basically dead mastery of bg/kobs -upper ib/chosen middle etc its hard came at you constructivly.

If every time someone have to face a wall and have by rldefault very core element which should be there 100% working (which are also not class or archtype but game defining) modified pushed against his their willl its just gona end bad.

Again a pureheart suggestion.... stop balance under the rule that Who balance must make the modification itself, those are 2 diff competence.

Take someone with 10 years exeperience in warhammer online which had play all level in game which is also pro-change , against op stuff and like/play both realm. Take modification from him and what happened will not surfed again. Keep try to balance from internal dev and you will keep fail over and over.

Make mistake once is allow we're human after all, but keep make mistake is devilish.

The wall is harder than your head keep bash at it will only hurt you...
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#77 » Wed May 08, 2019 9:41 am

mursaat1337 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 3:01 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:28 am
mursaat1337 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:18 am giving filthy casuals more of a chance to make the game feel fun is not going to break the game, it actually will make small scale more challenging and fun instead of the afk till they win meta that it is now on whoever has a premade rolling on either faction.
No amount of balance changing will stop pugs from being farmed by premades when said pugs will still be queuing solo versus said premades.

Fun is also a very subjective term, and is not really a valid reason to make balance passes (quite possibly at the detriment of someone/something else). I'm also at a loss as to how such an approach, which (I assume) would be centered around casual players' enjoyment, would make the game more 'challenging' for everyone else.
use some imagination.
Heh, expected as much.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#78 » Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 am

peterthepan3 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 9:41 am
mursaat1337 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 3:01 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:28 am

No amount of balance changing will stop pugs from being farmed by premades when said pugs will still be queuing solo versus said premades.

Fun is also a very subjective term, and is not really a valid reason to make balance passes (quite possibly at the detriment of someone/something else). I'm also at a loss as to how such an approach, which (I assume) would be centered around casual players' enjoyment, would make the game more 'challenging' for everyone else.
use some imagination.
Heh, expected as much.
i think he meant that with a general archteture degeneration in the game and the loose of some anchors any organised group will have to use lackluster stuff anyway and this would make game more balanced for everyone ........

exatly what "someone" said dev team was try doing..... lol..... tought well i fail to see as stuff like that wouldn't make the game just more pew pew from afar like anyother pvp game or will just kill directly or indirectly some classes.
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Taz83
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Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#79 » Wed May 08, 2019 11:04 am

reaching a balance point will be something hard to reach and won't happen anytime soon due to many reasons :

1- different class in each realm
2- avoiding class mirror
3- losing people who play only lion class for example since the class been FOTM for the past years (this is not a major issue but I already know a lot of people who only play that class and nothing else so it is there)
4- since fort implementation has been done the differences between both sides has been more clearly for example distro lack of m4 Moral drain which is an issue I keep hearing in every fort attack and balancing this kind of stuff will take more time and more patches
5-the current player database is more order to distro at the moment

at the end its nice to see that the devs are aware of the server issue and are really listen to the players ideas about balancing the server and making it more fun and more enjoyable to play and this is what I really like and would love to see in the future updates because it will increase the player database and It will also pull more new players to be part of this server in the future

good luck with this mission

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 8280
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Re: Balance Discussion Forum v3

Post#80 » Wed May 08, 2019 1:46 pm

Tesq wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 7:24 am Again a pureheart suggestion.... stop balance under the rule that Who balance must make the modification itself, those are 2 diff competence.

Take someone with 10 years exeperience in warhammer online which had play all level in game which is also pro-change , against op stuff and like/play both realm. Take modification from him and what happened will not surfed again. Keep try to balance from internal dev and you will keep fail over and over.

Make mistake once is allow we're human after all, but keep make mistake is devilish.

The wall is harder than your head keep bash at it will only hurt you...
Are you referring to yourself as the person we should come to for balance?

What dev on the team do you think hasn't played this game for 10 years?

We're not unhappy with the success of balance over the course of RoR, but rather the way it's shared with the community which is the point of the BDF. We can just as easily write patch notes and not have discussions like every other game out there that does their own balance internally. It's not like we're dying for people to throw **** at us on the daily.
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