Broken WB Balance

[Karast]

What i am saying is, maybe look at what you have and then look at what desto have, you calling for a nerf on desto, that is what you are asking for, and you have done that. With out looking at what Order has and can do.

I want balance in this game. You do not. what you want is still to have it on easy street.

Look at the main post. There is no counter for those two skills. Any order WB leader can tell you that. AoE WB is dead for order until these two points are addressed.

You don't have to take my word. You can take Lesti's, Cature's, Chezy's, Erhion's, any order WB leader.

Hell go make an order WB and give it a go. It takes one evening to see the impossibility of it. Every tool that can be used has been tried.

Have a serious look at those skills and tactics and the effect they have on AoE WB balance.

[tazdingo]

For the last 5 months order have been zerging none stop, and desto has had aao most of the time. You have to ask why more people what to play order then desto

is there any true concensus on this? which realm has the most zone locks per month? most scenario wins? most active 40/40+ players? there must be some data on this

my personal assumption is that it is very close to 50/50 with a slight month to month variance but i would love to be proven wrong

most threads asking which realm needs the most support (i read every single one in a search for this answer) receive the answer "order" across the board and it has been this way since at least 2017. maybe fortress locks will finally give us some real answers

- it would also be funny if order is the more popular realm, simply because people have been convinced that the opposite is true

[Collateral]

That was then and this is now.

A lot changed in the recent patches and Mara drain is everywhere. We see it every night, every fight. All you have to do is go join an order WB in prime time as a tank or front liner, and unless you are BW good luck getting to M2.

And that's why I mention kiting. Of course kiting is hard to pull off, especially against huge zergs. But I'm just trying to give you an alternative. Maras don't have 80 ft range. Sure kiting would prolong the fight, but at least you could reach m2 on most bws. Order has so much good cc, just try different things. When someone mentions kiting wb, people will probably laugh, but I believe it can be effective. Rvr combat doesn't have to mean two blobs smashing into eachother. Sure it can look fun, but when you are clearly outnumbered or outclassed, why not try something else? You have knight snares, ib snares, am snares, runie staggers, engi staggers, silences, kds etc. Yes you can say destro has it pretty much the same, but everyone knows order is more dominant in the kiting game. Sure there is the infamous choppa pull, but all of that can be interrupted by decent tanks.

[Karast]

That was then and this is now.

A lot changed in the recent patches and Mara drain is everywhere. We see it every night, every fight. All you have to do is go join an order WB in prime time as a tank or front liner, and unless you are BW good luck getting to M2.

And that's why I mention kiting. Of course kiting is hard to pull off, especially against huge zergs. But I'm just trying to give you an alternative. Maras don't have 80 ft range. Sure kiting would prolong the fight, but at least you could reach m2 on most bws. Order has so much good cc, just try different things. When someone mentions kiting wb, people will probably laugh, but I believe it can be effective. Rvr combat doesn't have to mean two blobs smashing into eachother. Sure it can look fun, but when you are clearly outnumbered or outclassed, why not try something else? You have knight snares, ib snares, am snares, runie staggers, engi staggers, silences, kds etc. Yes you can say destro has it pretty much the same, but everyone knows order is more dominant in the kiting game. Sure there is the infamous choppa pull, but all of that can be interrupted by decent tanks.

Kite and assist wbs are not AoE WBs. They don't do well in bigger fights, and they are next to useless in set piece defenses. This is about AoE WB's, and zealot punt and mara drain kill that for order WBs.

You can become a front-line WB in a kite setup, and thus you cannot make focused WB's and blobs like destro does.

[Warfare80]

What i am saying is, maybe look at what you have and then look at what desto have, you calling for a nerf on desto, that is what you are asking for, and you have done that. With out looking at what Order has and can do.

I want balance in this game. You do not. what you want is still to have it on easy street.

Im pretty sure it is balance he is talking about Maybe these balance issues is no problem at all with pug vs pug, but the problem gets real and gamechanging whenever coordinated WBs joins the fight.

We all love this game,otherwise we would not be here and having this discussion.

Everyone need to keep up the good spirit and assist the devs with feedback to make this game as attractive as possible.
Unbalance is a gamekiller and needs to get addressed asap,otherwise all the hard work from the devs will be for nothing.
I just returned to the game and allready seen the big impact some skills have on bigscale fights.
And as a returning player i dont have 100% info about all skills on both sides yet, but im not stupid. I see the problems.

During hot topics as this one, it is very easy to get salty. We all know it and we have all been in that situation. But lets try to work together in this matter.

I wish everyone a great weekend!

PS:I quoted you,but it is only the first two lines of text im aiming at you m8 And it is NOT sarcasm, it is just my honest opinion.

[Timmitz]

The imbalance is in the willingness to organise a proper warband, disciplined execution of tactics and the willingness of individuals to play what is needed for an optimal composition.
The remarks on a few abilities you've made Karast are not an issue, there are ways around it. Figure them out, compose a proper warband and you'll see that its not as bad as you propose in your initial statements.

A simple taunt will stop the zealot from knocking people around... And that's only one of the tricks you can use.

[bulgy70]

You are coming on the forum asking to nerf desto, when desto are on the back foot and have been for 5 months, is that fair to desto?

You think it is fair for desto to be zerg almost 24 / 7 and then all order do is blob up and zerg some more. You think it is fair when most of order have Van gear, and are gearing it up on there alt, when most of desto dont even have it.

So before you come on here asking for things like this, take the time to look at the bigger picture, take the time to look at how much easier order have it to desto. Take the time and look at how much better order classis are to desto.

Ask yourself why more players are playing Order then desto, and look at why that is.

If there is not balance soon in this game, order will be playing by themselfs, desto are sick to the back teeth seeing posts like yours, when you are playing onthe easy street side.

[ragafury]

A simple taunt will stop the zealot from knocking people around... And that's only one of the tricks you can use.

Nope. Its a selbuff that drains ap.

[hammerhead]

Well, if the phrase on the sand concerns me, then I have been playing in EU time for a long time. And besides a temporary paroxysm in the form of a giant blob of order (which only confirms the fact that this is the only remaining winning strategy), I see a numerical superiority of destruction. Moreover, it is not just about zerg but about an organized game. In short, the number of premades that can be exposed by Desi every day is greater than Order.

Regarding the alleged superiority of the engineer is more your fears. I do not see any superiority. Magus beats with magic, his crit tactics are scattered across all trees, while the engineer is forced to play even in ST long tree, go for crit with tactics in a tree that he will not use in 95% of the time.

And again, the destruction of any proposal to the discussion sprang insults and say "nerf" while no one specifically suggested anything. Fear is strong ...

[Drozen]

First of i wanna say props to you all for trying out the more st assist train in cntk karast!

But blaming this inbalance is not due to moraldrain from mara, i for one dont use it and rather use seweral other tactics before using crashing blows cuz those ones will leave i bigger impact (brute force or insain whispers) sure if we would turn away from these zergfights and have more "normal" numbers again (wb vs wb'ish) then yea but now 99% of the time pure dmg is valued higher. Only thing i tend to value aswell is a timed kd pref around healers.. But thats it.

Zdps channeled punt, is just that... Bait it out? We only have 1 person/wb with it.

But it all boil down to do what leder says and kill stuff, and atm there are a few classes on order wich can tick those boxes.. Bw and one or two sl/engi for wb. So yea, bring what is actually usefull.