[Review] [SW] Steady Aim

[Panzerkasper]

Spoiler:

It is absolutely no secret, that rdps are completly overperforming and you want to buff the best one even further?
You want proof? I suggest for once play against a well played order rdps group, or against one with a melee-SW like Kajtarn are doing it atm. Do so and then think about your proposal again. I have played against and with SW and this class lacks of nothing.
Case closed.

Your counterargument is to be upset that you got rolled by a premade. Not very helpful. Changing a skill does not imply a buff to the class.

You don't seem to know me, so your shitposting is forgiven.

Anyways, the "destro has morale pump" arguement is debunked, the problem seems to be the Scout stance is bad.
I don't see any reason giving 3 crit buffs to a single class. Alone this should have this thread insta closed.

I decide who is shitposting and moderate them accordingly. I also decide when this thread is closed. User received a warning for this post.

[Acidic]

I fail to see why the dot changes has any relevance to a sw , this change affects pretty much all classes both offensive and defensive. The inclusion of this in the argument for change should mean all classes get given an equivalent improvement.

The DoT changes are irrelevant, yes. But the issue raised by OP is still valid in my eyes: Steady Aim sucks.

Could you elaborate a bit on “steady aim sucks” , sounds good but is a very subjective and a rather unquantifiable comment. This as the basis for a change would not really get past your own criteria for discution.
My problem is the OP statement of steady aimbeing not great is not expanded in a good way in the “why” discution. The why is “need more burst dps “ and steady aim can be changed to give more. This argument suggest the OP wants a class buff rather than improve Ingvar steady aim directly.

[Coma]

I fail to see why the dot changes has any relevance to a sw , this change affects pretty much all classes both offensive and defensive. The inclusion of this in the argument for change should mean all classes get given an equivalent improvement.

The DoT changes are irrelevant, yes. But the issue raised by OP is still valid in my eyes: Steady Aim sucks.

Could you elaborate a bit on “steady aim sucks” , sounds good but is a very subjective and a rather unquantifiable comment. This as the basis for a change would not really get past your own criteria for discution.

steady aim as a crit booseter abilities with short duration and medium (30 sec) CD is obviously deisgned as Burst damage CD, but the cast increase component (1,5 sec per cast also applied to instant) obviously work AGAINST burst damage since it greatly increase the downtime betwwen one skill and the other (so more time to heal between damages that is exactly what burst aim to avoid ^^').

As for sustained dps (yep I already stated that the concept of the skill suggest it was aimed to burst damage but since it fail at it lets look at how it affect sustained...):

50% crit increase on a 50% damage increase on crit (that is the basic damage increase of all classes and what ranged SW has access to) translate into an avarage of 25% dps increase.
1,5 sec casting time increase against a casting time of 3 sec (festering arrow) result in a 33% dps loss, against a 2 sec casting time (eagle eye) result in a 45% dps loss, against a 1 sec (or lower) casting time result in a 60% dps loss... when adding up the 2 the resulting dps is:

3 sec casting time; -8% dps
2 sec casting time; -20% dps
1 sec casting time; -35% dps

even considering that would tend to use it on stronger skill to maximized the efficency you would still loose dps compared to firing the skill normally

so... Steady Aim is BAD for burst... and REALLY BAD for sustained... this is what I would call a "skill that suck".

PS: a little addition that I almost forgot... by increasing casting time SA also makes instant skill not usable on the move with exception of Flanking shot.

[Acidic]

Spoiler:

The DoT changes are irrelevant, yes. But the issue raised by OP is still valid in my eyes: Steady Aim sucks.

Could you elaborate a bit on “steady aim sucks” , sounds good but is a very subjective and a rather unquantifiable comment. This as the basis for a change would not really get past your own criteria for discution.

steady aim as a crit booseter abilities with short duration and medium (30 sec) CD is obviously deisgned as Burst damage CD, but the cast increase component (1,5 sec per cast also applied to instant) obviously work AGAINST burst damage since it greatly increase the downtime betwwen one skill and the other (so more time to heal between damages that is exactly what burst aim to avoid ^^').

As for sustained dps (yep I already stated that the concept of the skill suggest it was aimed to burst damage but since it fail at it lets look at how it affect sustained...):

50% crit increase on a 50% damage increase on crit (that is the basic damage increase of all classes and what ranged SW has access to) translate into an avarage of 25% dps increase.
1,5 sec casting time increase against a casting time of 3 sec (festering arrow) result in a 33% dps loss, against a 2 sec casting time (eagle eye) result in a 45% dps loss, against a 1 sec (or lower) casting time result in a 60% dps loss... when adding up the 2 the resulting dps is:

3 sec casting time; -8% dps
2 sec casting time; -20% dps
1 sec casting time; -35% dps

even considering that would tend to use it on stronger skill to maximized the efficency you would still loose dps compared to firing the skill normally

so... Steady Aim is BAD for burst... and REALLY BAD for sustained... this is what I would call a "skill that suck".

PS: a little addition that I almost forgot... by increasing casting time SA also makes instant skill not usable on the move with exception of Flanking shot.

Could you simplify this for me. How much effective dps does steady aim give ?
I got lost in the explanation (I blame age )

BDF forums are not for explaining skills/tactics. If you don't know what we are talking about here, refrain from posting.

[lefze]

Spoiler:

Could you elaborate a bit on “steady aim sucks” , sounds good but is a very subjective and a rather unquantifiable comment. This as the basis for a change would not really get past your own criteria for discution.

steady aim as a crit booseter abilities with short duration and medium (30 sec) CD is obviously deisgned as Burst damage CD, but the cast increase component (1,5 sec per cast also applied to instant) obviously work AGAINST burst damage since it greatly increase the downtime betwwen one skill and the other (so more time to heal between damages that is exactly what burst aim to avoid ^^').

As for sustained dps (yep I already stated that the concept of the skill suggest it was aimed to burst damage but since it fail at it lets look at how it affect sustained...):

50% crit increase on a 50% damage increase on crit (that is the basic damage increase of all classes and what ranged SW has access to) translate into an avarage of 25% dps increase.
1,5 sec casting time increase against a casting time of 3 sec (festering arrow) result in a 33% dps loss, against a 2 sec casting time (eagle eye) result in a 45% dps loss, against a 1 sec (or lower) casting time result in a 60% dps loss... when adding up the 2 the resulting dps is:

3 sec casting time; -8% dps
2 sec casting time; -20% dps
1 sec casting time; -35% dps

even considering that would tend to use it on stronger skill to maximized the efficency you would still loose dps compared to firing the skill normally

so... Steady Aim is BAD for burst... and REALLY BAD for sustained... this is what I would call a "skill that suck".

PS: a little addition that I almost forgot... by increasing casting time SA also makes instant skill not usable on the move with exception of Flanking shot.

Could you simplify this for me. How much effective dps does steady aim give ?
I got lost in the explanation (I blame age )

The tl;dr is that it reduces effective dps instead of increasing it.

No need to explain unless you are trying to debunk someone.

[Coma]

Spoiler:

Could you elaborate a bit on “steady aim sucks” , sounds good but is a very subjective and a rather unquantifiable comment. This as the basis for a change would not really get past your own criteria for discution.

steady aim as a crit booseter abilities with short duration and medium (30 sec) CD is obviously deisgned as Burst damage CD, but the cast increase component (1,5 sec per cast also applied to instant) obviously work AGAINST burst damage since it greatly increase the downtime betwwen one skill and the other (so more time to heal between damages that is exactly what burst aim to avoid ^^').

As for sustained dps (yep I already stated that the concept of the skill suggest it was aimed to burst damage but since it fail at it lets look at how it affect sustained...):

50% crit increase on a 50% damage increase on crit (that is the basic damage increase of all classes and what ranged SW has access to) translate into an avarage of 25% dps increase.
1,5 sec casting time increase against a casting time of 3 sec (festering arrow) result in a 33% dps loss, against a 2 sec casting time (eagle eye) result in a 45% dps loss, against a 1 sec (or lower) casting time result in a 60% dps loss... when adding up the 2 the resulting dps is:

3 sec casting time; -8% dps
2 sec casting time; -20% dps
1 sec casting time; -35% dps

even considering that would tend to use it on stronger skill to maximized the efficency you would still loose dps compared to firing the skill normally

so... Steady Aim is BAD for burst... and REALLY BAD for sustained... this is what I would call a "skill that suck".

PS: a little addition that I almost forgot... by increasing casting time SA also makes instant skill not usable on the move with exception of Flanking shot.

Could you simplify this for me. How much effective dps does steady aim give ?
I got lost in the explanation (I blame age )

3 sec casting time; -8% dps
2 sec casting time; -20% dps
1 sec casting time; -35% dps

even considering that you would tend to use it on stronger skill to maximized the efficency you would still loose dps compared to firing the skill normally

this ^^'

if you want a TLDR; sustained dps is LOWERED when using SA and burst damage is SLOWED when using SA = SA is BAD BEHIND REDEMPTION, no simple "twiking" would be enough.. the skill need to be completely revised



PS: one more thing I tested some time ago and than forgot... SA increased cast actualy mess up Expert skirmisher... not only is the incresed cast not reduced... it also make it so that the original casting time of the skill is not reduced aswell ^^' I've tested it with ES with a target actualy within the tactic range and using Eagle EYE (I also did the test with LA but didn't use it as a proof since LA+ES is already a bug per se ^^'), the casting bar will show the correct casting time (1,5 sec casting time that is the aproximation of 3,5/2 = 1.75) and the casting bar actualy take the intended time to complete (that is it take a little longer than 1,5 sec)... but once the bar is over you stay "frozen in animation for an additional timeframe that end up covering all the reduced casting time before the skill is actualy fired, if you move while in this "frozen animation" the skill will not fire

[Acidic]

Ok, thx.
Think maybe this would have been a good starting point
The only justification I found for this lowering of effective dps vs crit from live was that crit provides additional utility via procs such as AP via tactics.

[TenTonHammer]

Spoiler:

Then by your logic "but crit op", Crit Futile Strikes is a thing. Cool, glad we both have agreed then that this change doesn't negatively impact Destro at all.

Any benefit from stacking FS is immediately countered by initiative debuffs


Dont try to compare SW's to real glass cannons like BW/Sorc or mdps like they are supposed to be on equal footing and should all get % crit increase damage tactics or something and are under performing for the lack of it or some line like that

Not discussing FS or Ini debuffs.

[Penril]

I fail to see why the dot changes has any relevance to a sw , this change affects pretty much all classes both offensive and defensive. The inclusion of this in the argument for change should mean all classes get given an equivalent improvement.

The DoT changes are irrelevant, yes. But the issue raised by OP is still valid in my eyes: Steady Aim sucks.

Could you elaborate a bit on “steady aim sucks” , sounds good but is a very subjective and a rather unquantifiable comment. This as the basis for a change would not really get past your own criteria for discution.
My problem is the OP statement of steady aimbeing not great is not expanded in a good way in the “why” discution. The why is “need more burst dps “ and steady aim can be changed to give more. This argument suggest the OP wants a class buff rather than improve Ingvar steady aim directly.

OP explained it when he mentioned it doesn't synergyze with anything anymore. In the past you would use SA mid-flight to guarantee a Fester Arrow crit. That's pretty much the only time you ever used the skill. Since both UF and FA have been nerfed in RoR, the issue is valid in my eyes.

[footpatrol2]

Spoiler:

Maybe UF and FA should be un-nerfed.

Make the proposal and keep it outside of this thread.