[Declined][Magus] Bolt of Change

[Whitesands]

This thread is tied to a similar thread put forward when the Balance Forums were not active.

The single target focused magus is meant to be a real threat to individual targets. The hallmark ability of the single target magus is Bolt of Change (BoC) (Havoc Mastery line). It had a cool down of 5 seconds. It was then moved to the 13 point position of the Havoc Mastery. In Dec. of last year the 5 second cool down was reverted to an older version to become 10 seconds. The 13 point mastery placement remained. This appears to have been an error. From the comments tied to the Dec. 6th 2016 patch notes from Azarael:

"Wasn't BoC changed to the 5 sec cooldown and moved to the 13pt spot because of the cooldown change? if we are going back to 10 sec cooldown, shouldn't be we be moving it back to the original spot?"


As noted, Azarael linked the 5 second cool down to the change in ability position in the mastery line. As long as the 10 second cool down for BoC remains, BoC should be returned to its old mastery position. As it stands BoC has less potency and is less accessible for magi to use. The 13 point placement changes many of the prior magus mastery builds because now only single target magus can get it. So, for the class it is the worse of both worlds: the single target magus is not viable when compared to other single target (R)DPS and all other magus builds are cut off from having BoC as any option at all.

The proposal then is one of the two options below:

1) Return BoC to it's prior 5 second cool down. This would allow magi that focus on the Havoc Mastery Line to have real killing power and be a threat to single targets, per their specialty.

2) Leave the 10 second cool down to BoC and return it to its prior placement at 9 points in the Havoc Mastery. This will allow other magi that are not Havoc focused to still have access to the ability.

My preference would be to keep the 13 point Havoc placement, but return the cool down to 5 seconds. This would allow single target magi to gain something, for their commitment to single target killing.

Note: whichever option is taken would also apply the Engi Snipe.

[Gerv]

Moving to discussions
Points to discuss - the two options posted above, either,
A) agree with the poster and the solution you believe is appropriate and give reasons why
or
B) disagree with both solutions, posting reasons why and propose an alternative solution.

- Gerv

[peterthepan3]

I believe Bolt of Change should be returned to a 5-second CD, with the ability's placement (13pts) left as it is.

The ST magus burst rotation revolves heavily around BoC. Having it in 13pts makes it THE spec-defining ability, and makes it unavailable to certain change/demo specs, thus, alleviating concerns of being OP/mix and matching.

As argued before, being able to maintain hard burst is what makes a strong ST DPS. As it stands, Magus can put put the hurt properly - but only every 10+ seconds. Bearing in mind how long it takes for a Magus to get full stacks, and that they must remain stationary during the entirety of the rotation, they ought to remain potent consistently while standing still - as opposed to every 10 seconds.

Aza tried to find a viable replacement by giving FRF +50% crit dmg via the tactic, and didn't really work. BoC's 3-second cast, high damage, coupled with its undefendable nature (ensuring that you will always deal SOME damage), makes this ability the class's WoP/Coordinated Strike, upon which the Magus is very reliant in order to establish itself as a threat (as was seen when said ability was 5 seconds, coupled with changes)

[Arbich]

Spoiler:

makes this ability the class's WoP/Coordinated Strike,

WoP and Coordinated have both 10sec cooldown.
A great range, undefendable, high damage cast is almost op. As a downside it has a long casttime, which hampered its role as a finisher a bit.
When the changes should also apply to snipe, I guess the bitterstone thunderers will recruit a SM for each group.

You are cherry picking Pan's reply rather than contributing constructively to the discussion by either responding to the OP in supporting and posting why you support it proposal and how it positively influences the Magus and Engi or refuting the proposal and posting why it is not required with or without an alternative solution.

- You have been warned, follow the rules, post constructively for or against or not at all, continuation will lead to banning.
Gerv.

[Karast]

While I would personally enjoy the change I feel that under current circumstances the change would create imbalance rather than fix it.

The key issue with a 5s BoC is the fact that it is a high damage skill that is undefendable. These two aspects are not necessarily an issue but when you take into account the maximum range you then have a very serious issue.

Counter-play is important, but there is no real counter-play from range. Most of the usual methods for preventing or interrupting spike will not work. Avoidance stats are not effective, and BoC / Snipe can strike from outside the range of detaunt.

But the main issue I have with the 5s BoC / Snipe is that it turns an entire mastery tree into being focused around 1 ability. It becomes the core of every rotation, and while it provides a short term improvement it does not help to solve core issues with the entirety of the trees. Those being the over abundance and stack-ability of avoidance stats, weak dots, and a dependence on long cast / slow setups in a meta focused on burst.

I have similar issues when it comes to moving BoC / Snipe back to their original positions in the tree. At least for engineer having phosphorus shells lower in the tree, combined with the tweaked damage, has proven to be very useful. It can be used quite successfully in side specs with grenade and tinker and has opened up some interesting build choices. Going back to top tree would ruin these options and really provide no real benefit, but to future increase BoC / Snipe value and dominance within builds.

BoC / Snipe are a crutch for magus / engi. Over reliance on them is a core issue for the careers, and increasing that dependence is more of a negative than a positive when it comes to build diversity.

For these reasons I would recommend that nothing be changed in the short term, until such a time that the maximum range of BoC / Snipe can be capped at 150ft and then the cast time can be changed as suggested to 5s.

[Sulorie]

The change to 13pts broke midtier magus ST specs but for T4 it is easily available with r40 rr40.
The skill is very powerful considering range, dmg and the undefendable attribute. On a 5sec cd it could be matched with cooldown decreasers of SM, as already mentioned, for perfect synergy.

If the 9pts ability would be better, I would vote for swapping it back to live mastery path but currently it is fine.

[arnagob]

- Double posted.

[arnagob]

The change to 13pts broke midtier magus ST specs but for T4 it is easily available with r40 rr40.
The skill is very powerful considering range, dmg and the undefendable attribute. On a 5sec cd it could be matched with cooldown decreasers of SM, as already mentioned, for perfect synergy.

If the 9pts ability would be better, I would vote for swapping it back to live mastery path but currently it is fine.

When you say "On a 5sec cd it could be matched with cooldown decreasers of SM", SM mean Sword Master ?

- Yes he does - Gerv

[TheSockPuppet]

I've been thinking about the 5s cd an i have come to the conclusion that while it could increase the overall damage output and thus, the pressure* the magus applies, it wouldn't really bring a ground-breaking increase to his lethality in any setting.

Here's the thing, let's assume you are running the cookie-cutter havoc magus spec and you are targeting someone by yourself. You drop your first nuke (BoC->SoI->SVF), with all the dots and buff stacks up. It does 3-5k damage, you start your IFoC, you let it hit 2 times...then your target is stabilized by the healer and you see no point in keeping your IFoC up because it's just an AP leakage at this point and it did it's job. Now, you are at about 50 AP, your BoC is off CD, but the rest of your nuke isn't. If you try to cast BoC, it would take 3 seconds, enough time for any healer to heal more than the 1-2k damage the ability would inevitably cause, if he didn't already do that when he was stabilizing your target. If you wait for let's say, 4 seconds then start BoC (7 seconds total) for the rest of your nuke to come online, your target is quite possibly going to be back to full health and you are just going to start a half-arsed nuke with half your AP and without IFoC. You applied more pressure*, that's for certain, but you didn't score a fatality.

But i suppose it would be a far better thing to do than stand like a dingus with a thumb up your ass every 5 seconds because you have nothing better to throw at the enemy.
So i am all up for it.

*(the politically correct way of saying fluff damage)

[peterthepan3]

I've been thinking about the 5s cd an i have come to the conclusion that while it could increase the overall damage output and thus, the pressure* the magus applies, it wouldn't really bring a ground-breaking increase to his lethality in any setting.

Here's the thing, let's assume you are running the cookie-cutter havoc magus spec and you are targeting someone by yourself. You drop your first nuke (BoC->SoI->SVF), with all the dots and buff stacks up. It does 3-5k damage, you start your IFoC, you let it hit 2 times...then your target is stabilized by the healer and you see no point in keeping your IFoC up because it's just an AP leakage at this point and it did it's job. Now, you are at about 50 AP, your BoC is off CD, but the rest of your nuke isn't. If you try to cast BoC, it would take 3 seconds, enough time for any healer to heal more than the 1-2k damage the ability would inevitably cause, if he didn't already do that when he was stabilizing your target. If you wait for let's say, 4 seconds then start BoC (7 seconds total) for the rest of your nuke to come online, your target is quite possibly going to be back to full health and you are just going to start a half-arsed nuke with half your AP and without IFoC. You applied more pressure*, that's for certain, but you didn't score a fatality.

But i suppose it would be a far better thing to do than stand like a dingus with a thumb up your ass every 5 seconds because you have nothing better to throw at the enemy.
So i am all up for it.

*(the politically correct way of saying fluff damage)

The same applies to all classes: if you can't kill a target during an opportune moment, i.e. your burst sequence, you would then possibly switch target, to force the guard swap/healer's attention, or try again asap. This applies in 6v6, in rvr, in any environment. You don't carry on hitting the same target unless that is the best course of action. If you fail to kill the target, you refresh your BoC rotation asap (it will be off CD) on a new target, forcing the enemy healers/tanks to readjust. You could even bait it out, and then revert back to your original target. What this necessitates, however, is that the DPS can adapt quickly - and with a 10 second BoC, the Magus can't.