[BG] Utility discussion

[Bozzax]

Yep another nerf mara and nerf morale on block tactics - clap clap!

[geezereur]

If I remember correctly Crush The Weak was a dot why did they change that?

[dansari]

Can someone explain why removing morale pump from destro tanks (when my understanding is that order tanks have none) imbalance the game in order's favor?

[th3gatekeeper]

Can someone explain why removing morale pump from destro tanks (when my understanding is that order tanks have none) imbalance the game in order's favor?

Well.... Simply put. If we assume that destro vs order is currently balanced. You take away a MAJOR tool destro has, this now create imbalance...

So what your REAL question seems to imply is "is destro vs order currently balanced" and by your question I would assume you would say "no"...

I dont see any reason to think that destro vs order is currently not balanced, do you? I dont see 1 Destro WB running all over 2 Order WBs in RVR... I think there is a large consensus that Destro is the "under dog" of the server ATM (which admittedly does change every few months)... but I dont think we have any data to suggest that things are not balanced right now, so you are talking about merely nerfing 1 side, without any data to support this?

[Daknallbomb]

At the Moment order vs des is Pretty nice balanced

[th3gatekeeper]

to summarize for @gate

Spoiler:

LEFT MASTERY:
-Hastened doom---> half the value but stack with all other wounds debuff in game ( solve the redundancy problem with mara/chosen and requiring a crit to proc it wont happen as opener so it NEED to stack, also is a tactic it make more sense this way it will cause les confusion as most if not alla tactic stacks.)

MID MASTERY:
-KD can also enlight with parry (solve KD problem because 2h chosen/kobs/SM/BO can KD.......)
-anger drives me--->from 30% parry buff to parry/dodge/disrupt buff for 40%/20%/20/ or 30%/15%/15%
-terryfing foe---> proc change from hateful strike to feeding on weakness (leave pve agro skill for pve)
-feeding on weakness ---> remove CD (create a unique way to help the dark protector and also allow you to buff your toughness)


RIGHT MASTERY
mind killer--> from 3 stack to 1 stack but remove willpower debuff (since tactic debuff heal this way the int debuff is stronger can work even against bw if you really dont have avaiable crit reduction, but make the ammount worth to e used, less than 200 is a no)
*shielding anger ---> furious howl will increase damage on every group member in 100 feet for 10% (opposite of healing tactic of kobs...but not broken 15%...)
*unstopable fury---> mirror someway kobs runfang (nerfed version regardless...)

aka every mastery would be as the left one; it will have skills which proc multiple stuff all togheter, provided you slotted the correct tactic

mostrous rending /pitless strike
-dmg + ingore armor / dmg + tough debuff
-wounds debuff (tactic)
-auto attack speed buff(tactic)


feeding on weakness
-dmg + heal
-toughness buff
-% toughness buff (tactic)


furious howl
-dmg
-parry/block debuff
-dmg increase (tactic)


mind killer
-dmg + int debuff
-outgoing heal debuff (tactic)

basically due to all avoidance be on mid you will have avoidance and probably toughness tactic +2 free tactics and so you get 2on 3 from left or right mastery of these. Alternativly go kind of chosen tri spec and get channeling and mirrored runfang tactic and you are left with 2 more points to spend (rr 70)

LEFT MASTERY:
- The issue I see with Left Mastery, is that Toughness/Wounds/Armor debuff are all redundant. The only "special" thing here is Crimson Death, which rules out Spiteful Slam... I dislike this "stacking" with other wounds debuffs frankly as it isnt intuitive... I would rather see Hastened Doom apply an armor debuff OR toughness debuff on crit. This would make BG unique in that an AoE crit would apply an AoE armor debuff. Which would be unique to the Maras ST (but stronger) one. Then the wounds debuff or the toughness debuff can be ST skills.

So the "dynamic" would be:
- Chosen has weaker AoE Wounds debuff. Mara has Stronger ST Wounds debuff. BG has weaker ST Wounds.
- BG has "AoE Armor debuff" (on crit). Mara has stronger ST Armor debuff.
- Chosen has AoE Toughness debuff (aura), BG has ST toughness buff + debuff.

I would also LOVE to see Crimson Death's 30 hatred changed to cost 30 AP rather than Hatred. Currently 2H is starved for hatred and this is one of the candidates of that... Then....

MID MASTERY:
I agree on the "Spiteful Slam" being triggered off a Parry BUT! Change THIS to costing 25-30 Hatred (instead of AP). So it will "cost more" now than 25 AP, but has slightly easier access... Which seems fair. Combined with the Crimson Death change, this makes resource management for SnB harder but keeps things about the "same" as 2H who want to use this.

anger drives me - Ideally this would be a "tier" approach just like "Exile".
30 hate - 10 parry/ 5 dodge/disrupt.
60 hate - 20 parry / 10 dodge/disrupt.
90 hate - 30 parry / 15 dodge disrupt.
- now provides the defensive tools all in 1 tactic. It is slightly better than other tactics however it also costs more than everyone else's tactics so that seems fair... Also requires hatred which using the 5 sec KD, would lower your "defenses" because of this, so that creates some tradeoffs for all specs.

RIGHT MASTERY:
mind killer--> from 3 stack to 1 stack but remove willpower debuff. I like this idea. Make this a flat 75 Int debuff since Int already impacts healers and also you can spec via tactic to impact healers more...

Shielding Anger -> "Your Shield of Rage applies to your dark protector as well" OR... Could apply 50% of the shield to the entire party. Something like this IMO rather than increasing damage. So this tree and this tactic now provides some decent "party damage mitigation"

I think these modifications would be very interesting. Now BG can bring to the table some unique things in ANY spec that make him not redundant.

You can take this a step further by making Chosens "Hastened Dismissal" require a Great Weapon. Then I think you would be all set!

BGs would have a valid place in any Warband regardless of his spec OR the current group make up.

[dansari]

Can someone explain why removing morale pump from destro tanks (when my understanding is that order tanks have none) imbalance the game in order's favor?

Well.... Simply put. If we assume that destro vs order is currently balanced. You take away a MAJOR tool destro has, this now create imbalance...

So what your REAL question seems to imply is "is destro vs order currently balanced" and by your question I would assume you would say "no"...

I dont see any reason to think that destro vs order is currently not balanced, do you? I dont see 1 Destro WB running all over 2 Order WBs in RVR... I think there is a large consensus that Destro is the "under dog" of the server ATM (which admittedly does change every few months)... but I dont think we have any data to suggest that things are not balanced right now, so you are talking about merely nerfing 1 side, without any data to support this?

Sorry, I don't have enough data/knowledge to argue one way or the other. My question was merely an ask to clarify if decreasing or removing morale pumping (which I think from the conversation is one-sidedly destro) is enough to cause an imbalance between the two sides. If we assume both sides are equal in a 6v6 or 24v24 setting, if we only decrease the value of one side's morale pump (from the tanks that have it over the order tanks that don't - again correct me if I'm wrong), is this enough to cause an imbalance or is it just what destro do because it's the strongest method in group play, and there are other, non-morale based methods that still leave them on par against their counterparts or the opposing realm as a whole?

[Daknallbomb]

Hmm des order is good balanced with The destru morale pump. If destru doesent have they will loose every organized wb Fight to 80% i bet

[Tesq]

LEFT MASTERY:
- The issue I see with Left Mastery, is that Toughness/Wounds/Armor debuff are all redundant. The only "special" thing here is Crimson Death, which rules out Spiteful Slam... I dislike this "stacking" with other wounds debuffs frankly as it isnt intuitive... I would rather see Hastened Doom apply an armor debuff OR toughness debuff on crit. This would make BG unique in that an AoE crit would apply an AoE armor debuff. Which would be unique to the Maras ST (but stronger) one. Then the wounds debuff or the toughness debuff can be ST skills.

So the "dynamic" would be:
- Chosen has weaker AoE Wounds debuff. Mara has Stronger ST Wounds debuff. BG has weaker ST Wounds.
- BG has "AoE Armor debuff" (on crit). Mara has stronger ST Armor debuff.
- Chosen has AoE Toughness debuff (aura), BG has ST toughness buff + debuff.

I would also LOVE to see Crimson Death's 30 hatred changed to cost 30 AP rather than Hatred. Currently 2H is starved for hatred and this is one of the candidates of that... Then....

MID MASTERY:
I agree on the "Spiteful Slam" being triggered off a Parry BUT! Change THIS to costing 25-30 Hatred (instead of AP). So it will "cost more" now than 25 AP, but has slightly easier access... Which seems fair. Combined with the Crimson Death change, this makes resource management for SnB harder but keeps things about the "same" as 2H who want to use this.

anger drives me - Ideally this would be a "tier" approach just like "Exile".
30 hate - 10 parry/ 5 dodge/disrupt.
60 hate - 20 parry / 10 dodge/disrupt.
90 hate - 30 parry / 15 dodge disrupt.
- now provides the defensive tools all in 1 tactic. It is slightly better than other tactics however it also costs more than everyone else's tactics so that seems fair... Also requires hatred which using the 5 sec KD, would lower your "defenses" because of this, so that creates some tradeoffs for all specs.

RIGHT MASTERY:
mind killer--> from 3 stack to 1 stack but remove willpower debuff. I like this idea. Make this a flat 75 Int debuff since Int already impacts healers and also you can spec via tactic to impact healers more...

Shielding Anger -> "Your Shield of Rage applies to your dark protector as well" OR... Could apply 50% of the shield to the entire party. Something like this IMO rather than increasing damage. So this tree and this tactic now provides some decent "party damage mitigation"

I think these modifications would be very interesting. Now BG can bring to the table some unique things in ANY spec that make him not redundant.

You can take this a step further by making Chosens "Hastened Dismissal" require a Great Weapon. Then I think you would be all set!

BGs would have a valid place in any Warband regardless of his spec OR the current group make up.

-i do think it is instead, because all tactics in game should stack and be balanced for stack; most of tactics if not all with some exeption stacks that's why BG wounds debuff should stack too; i dont see well armor or toughness buff as alredy said

shammy and mara bring those: mara is undefitable and shammy one is spamable, make it stack solve any problem just adjust the value.

CD should not loose hate cost; more skill need to cost hate but the cost need to be spread better and def stuff cannot cost hate because is a dog that bite his tail otherwise, the absorb is the worst thing BG have regarding hate management because it drop your avoidance for have an absorb; at that point you can simply do not use it; the only use for that is if you are not using disrupt tactic and you need to def agains rdps. Otherwise you jimp your parry and possibly your toughness. So ye absorb bubble should loose hate cost, maybe be based on hate but not cost hate; CD cost should be reduced to 15 hate, and maybe more skill based on hate.

-I agree on what you want in regard give some hate cost to mid skills tough carfully.

-well int do not impact healers idk what you mean but since 1 skill alredy work on both for offensive and healing caster then it make few sense both debuff willpower and heal %. So it get some mastery mad reduction by have coutner vs offensive caster tough it need to last at least 20 sec because rdps kite away from you etc so need to last after the kite is over. Duration dosen't matter for heal debuff it will be cleanse or anyway need to have this long duration.

-the suggestion for the absorb bubble is something IB alredy have for magic dmg and well is not something so much talked about, it would require to be something big; tough i wanted to be lorewise with mastery names and well a bubble dosen't fit with the name of the mastery, a dmg increase done that for exemple. Also a flat absorb X is not really good in wb for exemple. the more number you face the more fixed values became worst, for exemple the IB magic absorb is the coevalent of the BO magic dmg reduction; jsut that BO reduces dmg in % (20%) which is a lot better than remove 500 dmg for exemple; it's basically give 1 gcd to the party maybe vs the BO giving a lot of dmg mitigation over 4 seconds. In the small/very small skirm a flat remove is better because take 500 but absorb 500 = no dmg. the higer the scale then it get badder and badder. That's why a bubble is meh compared to any % dmg increase or decrease or healing increase.
I could see a 1 min CD bubble just like a moral since BG need to spec Aoe KB in moral etc and so his morales are not traditional as other tanks which mean it may have some very strong but long CD skill in his sleeves.
So i could do with a 3/4k absorb 1 min CD. (this would be as have a kind of M4 but alredy viable at the start of the combat basically give a coevalent of ch/bo m4 tactic).
Another think not redundancy which lack is a heal debuff aoe for wb fight; only chosen have that and IF bg would have an aoe skill then the BG would be able to do multiple chosen job and be a force multiplers, the same reason why i said in CD fix thread logn ago to fix CD to have his CD to 5 sec with 10 sec of duration and not 10 sec with 10 sec CD but got unhearded.

[th3gatekeeper]

-i do think it is instead, because all tactics in game should stack and be balanced for stack; most of tactics if not all with some exeption stacks that's why BG wounds debuff should stack too; i dont see well armor or toughness buff as alredy said shammy and mara bring those: mara is undefitable and shammy one is spamable, make it stack solve any problem just adjust the value.

I personally think a wounds debuff on crit is just not that advantageous... Wounds debuff is powerful because you use at beginning of fight. If its a wounds debuff on crits, even if it stacked, it isnt something to take a BG into a group for... Especially since its in the 2H tree... Thats why I thought an armor debuff on crit would be very unique... Something a BG can use in melee range as an AoE with CD or Monster Rending or even proc off Wave of Scorn... But it would be a good synergy potentially with CD and offer a unique party benefits.

CD should not loose hate cost; more skill need to cost hate but the cost need to be spread better and def stuff cannot cost hate because is a dog that bite his tail otherwise, the absorb is the worst thing BG have regarding hate management because it drop your avoidance for have an absorb; at that point you can simply do not use it; the only use for that is if you are not using disrupt tactic and you need to def agains rdps. Otherwise you jimp your parry and possibly your toughness. So ye absorb bubble should loose hate cost, maybe be based on hate but not cost hate; CD cost should be reduced to 15 hate, and maybe more skill based on hate.

I agree. CD's cost is very high and the "hate management" basically falls ALL on the 2H. SnB has much easier time managing hate. Also, it creates a problem because your defensive tactics scale off hate, so using your party utility makes you less tanky etc... Even making it cost 15 Hate AND 15 AP could be a good idea. Spread the "costs" of hate around more. Like what you said below:

-I agree on what you want in regard give some hate cost to mid skills tough carfully.

-well int do not impact healers idk what you mean but since 1 skill alredy work on both for offensive and healing caster then it make few sense both debuff willpower and heal %. So it get some mastery mad reduction by have coutner vs offensive caster tough it need to last at least 20 sec because rdps kite away from you etc so need to last after the kite is over. Duration dosen't matter for heal debuff it will be cleanse or anyway need to have this long duration.

Int impacts AM/Shaman. Right? Any int counts towards healing and willpwoer counts towards damage depending on stance.

-the suggestion for the absorb bubble is something IB alredy have for magic dmg and well is not something so much talked about, it would require to be something big; tough i wanted to be lorewise with mastery names and well a bubble dosen't fit with the name of the mastery, a dmg increase done that for exemple. Also a flat absorb X is not really good in wb for exemple. the more number you face the more fixed values became worst, for exemple the IB magic absorb is the coevalent of the BO magic dmg reduction; jsut that BO reduces dmg in % (20%) which is a lot better than remove 500 dmg for exemple; it's basically give 1 gcd to the party maybe vs the BO giving a lot of dmg mitigation over 4 seconds. In the small/very small skirm a flat remove is better because take 500 but absorb 500 = no dmg. the higer the scale then it get badder and badder. That's why a bubble is meh compared to any % dmg increase or decrease or healing increase.
I could see a 1 min CD bubble just like a moral since BG need to spec Aoe KB in moral etc and so his morales are not traditional as other tanks which mean it may have some very strong but long CD skill in his sleeves.
So i could do with a 3/4k absorb 1 min CD. (this would be as have a kind of M4 but alredy viable at the start of the combat basically give a coevalent of ch/bo m4 tactic).
Another think not redundancy which lack is a heal debuff aoe for wb fight; only chosen have that and IF bg would have an aoe skill then the BG would be able to do multiple chosen job and be a force multiplers, the same reason why i said in CD fix thread logn ago to fix CD to have his CD to 5 sec with 10 sec of duration and not 10 sec with 10 sec CD but got unhearded.

This isnt a bad idea... You could even use Hastened Doom proc as the heal debuff... And swap Soul Killer to apply a wounds debuff.

This would mimic the DOK's "Curse of Khaine" but be outgoing instead of incoming... That might be too strong since it could be AoE... IDK...

I see what you say about %s vs #s and agree. I just dont want it to be too powerful... You could make Shielding Anger something like:"Ferocious Howl now ALSO reduces your opponents chance to dodge/disrupt attacks by 10%" this would be your "damage bonus" and now would make a BG who goes this far up the tree provide some very good benefits to RDPS in the party. I would prefer this

Maybe rename tactic (when able) to "Ferocious Anger".