Knight of the BLazing Sun or Ironbreaker ?

[Daknallbomb]

Block

[Gerv]

Knight is easier to play, so play a knight, i prefer IB, feels more rewarding and dwarfs and kewl.

Just please don't play a 2hander, we have enough thanks.

I was of the impression that general sentiment was shield not being necessary to do well as KOTBS or IB.

What is the survivability and damage utput difference between kotb and IB like exactly ?

Shields are certainly not required but you do need to make some adjustments elsewhere. You need a low chance to be crit, check your initiative value (as a Knight this is no problem due to the tactic runefang) and IB might have more trouble. Currently the renown points invested in mitigation are not reduced by the main stat, so investing in parry and dodge/disrupt is key (IB has it easier because of the ability oathbound).

Pure survivability in a solo environment I think the IB has it over the knight, the high avoidance and grumble and mutter + potions is great, but hte knight is not far behind with Vigilance and the absorb m1. However I would not recomend this moral in a group situation, you are much better with a champions challance.

In regards to damage output, the IB shines above the knight. Heavy Blow Cave-in and Grudge born fury and earthshatter with the associated specs deal huge damage. The knight can get nice solo damage with taunt + runefang + emporers champion m2 + the channel but the IB is more constant.

[xanderous]

Knight is easier to play, so play a knight, i prefer IB, feels more rewarding and dwarfs and kewl.

Just please don't play a 2hander, we have enough thanks.

I was of the impression that general sentiment was shield not being necessary to do well as KOTBS or IB.

What is the survivability and damage utput difference between kotb and IB like exactly ?

Shields are the most necessary thing in the game, lets put it into perspective, what are the three attributes that make a party successful, tank, healer, damage, the holy friggin trinity, disregarding a shield is like disregarding a healer and taking dps spec'd healer instead or a damage class that has gone full defensive, when they do that they don't serve their purpose anymore for the benefit of the group it becomes more individualistic, it can work but its niche and requires some very hardcore intensive groups but lets pretend for a second we aren't those types of personalities.

Now this is where it gets convoluted, people will make the claims such as 2handed tanks can be just as effective in their own way, this is fundamentally untrue, yes they "can" be effective but in regards to a warband or even a group, they only complement the team if there is an overabundance of defensive tanks and as soon as the real dps class comes along, they will be traded, assuming the leader cares about min/max advantages.

Here is an example of what you have with a defensive tank vs an offensive spec'd tank....

Offensive tank: Full spec'd for damage and some sustainability, emphasis to getting the most out of strength and damage abilities which aren't going to support the group as well because they have not spec'd up the defensive tree, they can take a hit but die quicker so their guard will become negligible when it comes to morale bombing and will put more burden on the healers because when they get focused, they drop like a stone.

Defensive tank: Full spec'd in defensive tree's so their defensive abilities will be at their most effectiveness, they will be so much harder to kill the point that the enemy will try to use knockbacks just to separate you from your guarded ally. You can actually break the will of a warband by being the tank that survives a full focus, i've seen it and it is bliss. Your ability to stay alive longer, makes you able to do all the things that make a tank great and you will be able to keep doing it for much longer periods of time, consistently, guard switching, challenge, crowd control, morale 4's and finaly hold the line ability.

Now we come to my final point, why did you roll a tank, yep it was because you don't want to die as quickly, gives you more time to react and fight the good fight, you loose that advantage when you go offensive spec, i am sorry that bums people out but its true and on final note, look at this....

Dodge - avoids physical ranged damage
Disrupt - avoids spell damage
Parry - avoids physical melee damage
Block - provides all three of these as long as you are facing your target

The keyword is "avoids" you are avoiding the damage in its entirety, now take out block, you just lost, more parry, dodge, disrupt and what did you gain, more damage, was it worth it, not for me to answer, does it serve a purpose to do that, probably, does it help your warband in the rvr, absolutely not.


Mic drop...

[Specialpatrol]

The IB is in a similar position, it pertains an AoE snare (50% up-time), a 45ft knock back which is unfortunately at a low angle (guard is max 30 ft), a unique parry buff and other stat buffs which rely on the carefull management of grudge (i.e. your oath friend buff and switching it to particular targets like you do guard). However all of this utility is out-classed by the knight.

Didn't Guard get ninja-nerfed a while back and reduced to an effective range of 20 ft?

The knight can get nice solo damage with taunt + runefang + emporers champion m2 + the channel but the IB is more constant.

Agree. The knight's channel attack is quite lackluster, though. You're better off just spamming Precision Strike and spending the mastery point on something more useful.

[Gerv]

The IB is in a similar position, it pertains an AoE snare (50% up-time), a 45ft knock back which is unfortunately at a low angle (guard is max 30 ft), a unique parry buff and other stat buffs which rely on the carefull management of grudge (i.e. your oath friend buff and switching it to particular targets like you do guard). However all of this utility is out-classed by the knight.

Didn't Guard get ninja-nerfed a while back and reduced to an effective range of 20 ft?

I believe it was at the point prior to the fix, incorrectly set for its effective range and it got reduced back to 30ft like a few other AoE abilities. I may be wrong, that is how I interpreted it. I was not part of the team then and not privy to internal explanations. A quick double check in-game is all that is needed.

[Layn]

gerv and xanderous, thank you both for posting excellent replies and information.

certainly some things to ponder over.

[Luth]

Avoiding damage has another advantage: you avoid also any debuff/secondary effect that is part of the ability, for example heal/armor/wounds debuffs, knock downs, snares, punts, deadly DoT rotations and other nasty stuff.

[Glorian]

Avoiding damage has another advantage: you avoid also any debuff/secondary effect that is part of the ability, for example heal/armor/wounds debuffs, knock downs, snares, punts, deadly DoT rotations and other nasty stuff.

Absolutely true.

If I want to put the Acid bomb corp debuff on the enemy warband I don't select shield tanks. They will easily block the DoT and therefore protecting his whole warband. So I need to select a squishy or 2H chosen.

That takes me at least a GCD.

But that is from an efectivity position.
What keeps you playing is usually winning and fun.

Winning is more consistent with SnB. But Fun is going with a big frikkin Zweihänder or hitting Goblins on their Head with a Giant Hammer.

[Luth]

But Fun is going with a big frikkin Zweihänder or hitting Goblins on their Head with a Giant Hammer.

This is ofc a priceless experience (not for the lil' green bastard i guess).

[Yardy]

You could run a Black orc Sword and board, stacking strength, you will punch out some nice big hits on the rag wearers, and still have that chance to avoid some damage with the block but you will be nuked from behind.......oh wait, you said order tank.

As a destro perspective; fighting against an IB or a KOTBS, the IB hits a lot harder and looks like a bucket load more fun to play than the knight swinging a 2hander. But if the group has a KOTBS the group tends to never die.....