Current state of MDPS vs RDPS?

[Jaycub]

Is there any reason to run melee trains anymore? I think like a lot of things that were a staple on live, or were not even considered but are/were extremely good (procs come into mind), melee seems inferior to ranged in every single aspect in the game aside from straight up 6v6, and even that is debatable.


We don't have the insane defensive power creep afforded by sov+ sets, active set abilities that did the same thing as RD... melee is a much more riskier playstyle in this current environment, and that risk doesn't exactly have a reward befitting of it. Why run a double melee setup when you can just run a double ranged or 3-2-1 group, have more damage, have more constant pressure, more possibilities for lethality, and risk less?

The only MDPS that even seem worth it atm are Mara/WL, simply because their kits are purpose built to shutdown RDPS. M1 ranged root is a godsend, and im glad the nerf was revoked. Pull/fetch and pounce as well, all good against RDPS. Not to mention these are the tankiest MDPS in the game on their respective sides allowing them to play that frontline role.

I just find myself logging in everyday and asking myself why I don't just reroll RDPS because it would be easier, less reliant on offgroups in scenarios, and just all around better for the wide variety of situations you find yourself in this game. And idk how anyone who mostly pugs or solos can stay sane and play MDPS.

[Aurandilaz]

So, buff WE?

YES please!

[TheSockPuppet]

No, no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

[roadkillrobin]

On Destro, MDPS is a far better state then RDPS are, moastly due to all the hard counters to kiting on order side. A RDPS group on Destro simply can't handle the ranged pulls, pounce, ranged roots and ranged KD's very well. And that force them into melee based groups in the competative scene.

[ToXoS]

On Destro, MDPS is a far better state then RDPS are, moastly due to all the hard counters to kiting on order side. A RDPS group on Destro simply can't handle the ranged pulls, pounce, ranged roots and ranged KD's very well. And that force them into melee based groups in the competative scene.

This.
And also Order have really good RDPS classes overall.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

Jay I don't always agree with you but appreciate how well thought out your posts are and how carefully articulated your arguments are.

Niceties aside, I just prefer playing a melee class as I get satisfaction out of killing players in a warhammer world with an axe to the face. It's much more forgivable in any setting to play ranged, as you're inherently toeing the line of fight or flee, but it's just not satisfying to me, personally. I suggested a slight change within the balance forums in order to facilitate melee classes ability to deliver the damage upon reaching a target by allowing them to cast self, group buffs stance swap while under the effects of charge, but it was mysteriously cast into the abyss. While my idea wouldn't drastically change the field, I believe it's small step in tnt right direction.

Furthermore, the aoe changes have provided melee with a niche role that can be used to mercilessly punish those who lack communication, coordination, thoughtfulness of their positioning and a refusal to adapt to a changing battlefield. Now a single MDPS has the power (with two dedicated, coordinated tanks and reactive healers) to completely mop the floor with enemy zerg (I don't like the over use of the word zerg in this community,as it is normally thrown around with such frequency it bears zero meaning, but in this instance if you're getting rekt by a 6 man's only MDPS ... You're in a mindless zerg.) I don't feel as these changes bridge the gap very much to be honest because, again, it's really a debuff applied to the unaware than it is a buff to those that are conscious of it's capabilities and limitations.

Overall, I think we're in a decent state as is and although changes on every axis is imminent, there will never ever be a sweet spot where everyone is fat and happy.

[porkstar]

Order EZ ranged pugging. Use the other order as meat shields, stay cognizant and play all day. Not much destro anti-kite cc if you can stay at +80 ft. Watch out for WE with RD and that's about it. Beasty Mara can spank you. I find a grenadier the most challenging. They are Dot dependent and have a ton of exposure to the enemy at 80ft or less but also a ton of escape tools.

Pug ranged on destro? The success is dependent on the number of SW, BW, WL, WH that happen to be about. As previously mentioned, all the hard cc at 100ft and technically unlimited cc range with the lion pet. I mean dang, I think you can even be rkd in the middle of a fetch if the SWs are a bit slow that day. Playing my SH, I've been soloed a few times by a lion pet alone because lion pets have the eye of the tiger and they never stop. But hey, you have Run Away (the lion pet is still faster than you =P)!

Also props to those pugging melee. It's a hard knock life indeed (unless you're a WL or Volgograd)

[Stmichael1989]

I tend to agree with the sentiment that ranged DPS has a distinct advantage over melee. Across the spectrum of all 6 ranged classes vs all 6 melee, the damage between one side and the other doesn't vary much. Not once have I ever heard the phrase "We need more melee, ranged classes don't hit hard enough."

That's not to say that melee needs to hit harder. If you're like the destro groups I always run into in scenarios, having 3 tanks guarding 3 melee DPS is very effective. The problem is that melee classes require a guard and dedicated healing in order to not immediately get blown up. But in that case, why bother with the melee DPS when ranged can do just as well without needing to expose oneself to immediate focus fire?

[Jaycub]

I'll work back a bit from my argument pertaining to 6v6 I used a while back explaining why ranged tends to not be as good as melee. In 6v6, things are very organized/structured well, so if you say run a 2-2-2 group that has a RDPS especially BW/Sorc a very easy counter to this is to sit on top of the bw/sorc. You know that the bw/sorc is probably the squishiest target, but more than that having a melee train on them is going to tank their damage, RDPS tends to succumb to pressure more than MDPS in terms of being able to out put damage thanks to cast times (and on live the 5ft deadzone for some). So you gimp the other teams damage output while putting lots of pressure on their most vulnerable target.

So why doesn't that work when you scale things up? Once you are outside of the realm of 6v6 things are chaotic, even in 12man scenarios. Now you are not only worrying about pressure from 1 group, but from 2. So now if you "sit" on the other teams bw/sorc you backlines might be exposed to a lethal threat, you might be pushing into 4-5 dps whaling on you and die in an overly aggressive act. But from my experience, more times than not it the former causing problems, that being unable to push due to your backlines being swamped.

What would be in 6v6 considered awful tankplay such as cross guarding tanks bum rushing healers, is all the sudden a very credible threat or at least gimping your healing to the point when diving into the other teams backlines becomes an impossibility. This is possible thanks to sheer numbers, and it being harder to take advantage of them not gaurding whatever. Same goes for WH/WE rambo plays, etc... And all this is amplified by how bad your offgroups can be, 12man+ scenarios you have absolutely no control over half or more of your team, in terms of how they play or what they play. A lot of times you get offgroups with little or no healing, and this puts way more stress on melee groups becuase those offgroups without heals tend to turn into 6v12 fights very fast. It's much easier for RDPS centric groups to pick apart pugs, since they can just roast ppl from 100ft away. And now you have to push into melee range against a hail of hell that more times than not kills you before you can do anything meaningful.

Then we enter the wonderful world of 100% uptime AoE snares being thrown around like candy from both sides, tons of readily avaiable hard CC on top of that and you begin to see a place very hostile towards classes that have to be within 5ft to deal damage. And with abilities like RD+FM even if you catch a RDPS with your train it better be with champs challenge or Mara/WL m1 (unless FM is up) or they will use RD and things go to **** quick. RDPS getting a 10 sec RD+double cast speed every minute morale, and 2 min CD RD is more than your typical MDPS has to deal with CC in most cases.

The only melee class that gave me that same godmode feeling as I had on my BW was prenerf pounce WL. Though I fall into the same camp as norkalli, something about melee feels more exciting/visceral than "towing the line" as he put it.

[Aurandilaz]

If you haven't yet realized Order suffers from the "Lone Hero"-Syndrome... soloing RDPS players who prefer to hit enemies from the safety of their own big herd, preferably 100 or 150 feet away. It requires no group play, you don't have to coordinate, you just stay around the herd and try to DoT and DoT even more any Destro you feel safe enough to approach towards.

And then the same heroes start raging in /ad /3 /6 /2 about Destro being OP or game favouring the enemy, because the same enemies had to adapt; they have to counter these lone ranged heroes by grouping up, to form 6mans with dedicated teamplay or larger WBs with enough healers to counter those heroic Order players who cannot assist at all, mostly because their focus is rather self-centred compared to grouping up to get more kills.
In an ironic twist, the realm of Destruction is more organized than the realm of Order; this comes from the need to counter all those rdps and their 100 feet CC abilities.

Order can barely keep their **** together when an organized Destro WB or a "elite" 6man appears in the lakes. It has little to do with Destro bias, as Order mdps more or less have the same arsenal of skills as Destro mdps.

But then again, at the end of the day it again boils down to the question; "Do I feel enough motivated to start a proper 6man or participated/lead an organized WB" or "hahaha pwned another newb with my 1337 skillzdatkillz from 100 feet distance"