Heart says WH head says WE

[Psychocandy]

Hi,
First of all sorry if this isn't the right forum to post this. The classes forum seemed like the appropriate place but it concerns both the Empire and the Dark Elves so I don't know how...

The thing is I have been wanting to roll a stealth class for some time now but I am undecided between the order or the destro choices. I'd need expert advice to clarify some aspects that are important to me. As the title says, I love the looks of the WH, and the lore, and the mount, etc. On the other hand Welves don't appeal to me as I can't identify with them (they sure look sexy enough tho;), but from all the posts that Ive read and by looking at the mastery trees and tactics I have got the impression that WEs can be more versatile or maybe they can have a wider range of performance and approach.

Please correct me if I had this wrong:

1. I have heard (and witnessed) about WEs defeating tanks, and hardly ever about WHs defeating tanks. Maybe this is due to abilities like Witchbrew and to a lesser extent Pierce Armor. I know stealth classes aren't supposed to be able to handle tanks, but I feel that I would like to play a class that stands a chance vs tanks if properly specced.

2. Another impression I gathered was that WEs can be really tough to kill with some specs. The self heal procs would seem to work better than the WH version is that corect? (The fact that kisses dont need frenzy to proc appeals to my mind as they free me from having to pay attention to or spend tactics to ensure procs.) Also, I can see tactics that decrease enemy crit rate by 25%, a tactic that grants an absorb shield on being hit, and the +10% parry tactic offers AP regen too.

3. Maybe I haven't looked well enough, but WHs don't seem to have a ranged KD, or do they? I'd like my toon to be able to have as many cc weapons as possible. Also the tactic that gives +25% run speed with the break root ability sounds cool to me.


I know, I know. Stealth classes are meant to be all about damage and burst down soft targets so fast that you dont need to spend on defensive nor worry about cc very much. And yet I would like the chance to play them sometimes in a different way.

So can you help me decide? Maybe I m wrong and WEs aren't any more versatile nor survivable than WHs, so I'd stick to the WH.

Thanks in advance.

[roadkillrobin]

WH is in general a better class but WE have more burst potential.
They are both extremly gear dependat classes and not as much about stealth as people make em up to be. They function pretty much like any other mdps do. If you just solo in group situations its usually a 1 for 1 trade. And it's usually worse for a group to lose dps preasure then a healer.

[kryss]

Personal experience: with the right spec and equipment (and not many WEs think about it), they can be the perfect anti-melee toon, a bit better than WH actually. In that case, they won't kill a competent healer, but they will be a pain in the ass for every melee around. If you like going to-to-toe against melees, thiank about WEs. Of course WHs are deadly enough to take down tanks, but the bullet mechanism is a little worse than kisses.

[Miszczu5647]

Few word from Witch Elf POV.

1. Yes. WE can win tank 1vs1. And yes Witchbrew is one of main tool to do this. But if you go for WB and Piercing Armor you lose your KD and crit. So forget about healers and you will have hard times with rdps. You have less burst but better sustain dmg.
Personally I love this build

2. Yes kisses could proc with every your attack (skill or AA). So kiss of doom can give you some HP. From my experience from 80 HP per proc up to 180 HP. Depending with who you fighting. Helpful but it is nothing can solely save your ass from properly geared WL. You kill them with different tools than outheal their dmg
Swift Blades is great tactic if you spec full parry otherwise forget about it. By "full parry" I mean more than 50%.
Sacrificial Rewards. For me crown jewel of WE tactics. With parry give you A LOT of survivability.
3. Oh man OYK is so funny Love to use this when my victim was thinking he is save. And it is possible to spec for double KD -OYK and Heartseeker. Funny spec
Swift Pursuit is very good tactic. Especially if you aim in build against squishy (max str+max crit). But watch out - in this build you will be raped by WL constantly.

If you want to play stealthy differently go for anti-melee tanky WE. WH can do similar. Ask Bodhi how to pull this.

But if you roll WH I will find you and I will kill you

[anarchypark]

follow your heart
cuz you will die a lot, no matter what class you pick
you will blame skills, mechanics, balances, other players, everything
in the end, class you love is only reason to play
and i'm pretty sure you will end up making both characters oneday

[Aurandilaz]

Yes, playing both in T4 I would say WE is 10-20% better than WH.
But good news is, this hardly matters because both lack behind in group utility compared to other mdps choices, so both We and WH rankly relatively low on their teams, so at least that is balanced.

What WE has better (IMO):
-OYK, ranged KD with decent aoe potential
-Actually useful left tree
-Pierce Armour, too good not to be used
-Witchbrew if you somehow are convinced that mid tree is better than left one (it has internal CD and IMO I would focus on playing the class as someone who hunts clothies and doesn't specialize in 1v1 combat versus tanks)

Now, WE also has 2 weapon auto attacks, and the Kisses can proc on every attack, whether damage ability or AA. WH only gets Bullet up when firing, and this happens maybe every 5 seconds. Whereas WE mostly likely gets Kiss effects up within 1-2 seconds of striking target.
And with worst luck, if your target somehow defends against the WH Bullet, well, your next change to get the bullet effect might be 6-10 seconds after beginning combat. A WE meanwhile might have applied the Kiss 3-10 times during the first 10 seconds of combat, depending on RNG luck.

I consider being good looking on WE a plus too, but the WH style is very appealing too.

But as I said above, honestly doesn't matter which one you choose, they are pretty similar and they both suffer from having light armour, which makes them less ideal for prolonged melee combat (which orvr is very often). Teams on both sides prefer mdps with medium armour, so you will feel equally ostracised on both sides.

[SOcial]

I agree with Aurandillaz on the point that WE is slightly better than WH as for now, but the class being pretty well balance wise i dotn see that changing (and i mean 10-20% doesnt seems like that big of a difference ocnsidering some other classes)

I disagree completely with the point that stealth isnt that important, on a 6v6 the stealth is pretty much what gonna make you able to kill someone (i'm only talking from a WH stand of point as i dont play WE) being able to put surprise on a target when your party is putting the pressure somewhere else is what gonna give you a kill if your dps are on point.

My huge problem is that out of stealth the damage is falling down a cliff (after the 50% ap cost buff from the out of stealth skill) Also without a proper comp your debuff heal is quickly removed you dotn have that much tool to cover it, and if you do you're damage fall again on the openning (cause you have to use 1 fervor and seeker blade to cover up the healing debuff instead of just "spaming" torment on a stun target)

But... WH is a hell of a fun and i find it really rewarding to play.

(though i'm far from being an awesome WH)

[daevar]

There are WH on this server who are able to kill tanks 1vs1, regardless of the spec.

Just pick a class that you like the most and give it a go!

[Panzerkasper]

I agree with Aurandillaz on the point that WE is slightly better than WH as for now, but the class being pretty well balance wise i dotn see that changing (and i mean 10-20% doesnt seems like that big of a difference ocnsidering some other classes)

I disagree completely with the point that stealth isnt that important, on a 6v6 the stealth is pretty much what gonna make you able to kill someone (i'm only talking from a WH stand of point as i dont play WE) being able to put surprise on a target when your party is putting the pressure somewhere else is what gonna give you a kill if your dps are on point.

My huge problem is that out of stealth the damage is falling down a cliff (after the 50% ap cost buff from the out of stealth skill) Also without a proper comp your debuff heal is quickly removed you dotn have that much tool to cover it, and if you do you're damage fall again on the openning (cause you have to use 1 fervor and seeker blade to cover up the healing debuff instead of just "spaming" torment on a stun target)

But... WH is a hell of a fun and i find it really rewarding to play.

(though i'm far from being an awesome WH)

Agreed, at that point the WE has the advantage, because whether you skilled into WB or PA, she can keep her damage consistant.

[blaqwar]

I was curious on how they match up so I started playing both, WH out of T3 working on Ruin and WE is almost out of T3. I'll be doing a write up and some vids on my blog when I feel like I've had my taste of both. Here's my impressions so far on the things that haven't been mentioned yet:

Style - WHs get a ****-ton of style points, the career simply oozes style and flavour. Even if you're a fan of how WE's look and the lore behind them I still feel like you'll find WHs equally if not more attractive in that deparment. It's probably the hats. The pistol/rapier look, the bullets, ranged executions, zealous hunting of heretics, it all meshes well together.

Meanwhile WE's just feel like semi-naked lunatics with daggers, I mean they have a flavour it's just less tangible than what WH's represent. Simply comparing ability names will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

While players focus on which career is stronger, more involving or easier to play I can tell you that to be really good at a career you need to like the way they play and feel, because you'll be playing it a lot.

Combat flow and synergy - WH just feels better to play to me. You pop out of stealth, build accusations and execute the target with a big finisher. Especially after you get either EW or BaL, they just feel like a proper finisher with bullets adding extra oomph.

As a WE you have gimmicks like holding onto your Blood Lust points for Frenzied Mayhem, not spending them unless you really need to in order to get a kill. All the finishers being very meh in burst by themselves is also weird. For a combo/burst class to not use finishers for big damage just feels conflicting design.

Or if you go with a Witchbrew spec and do away with burst to deal strong steady damage, which is not very consistent with a stealth burst class. Not saying it doesn't work, it just feels weird.

Survivability - Leveling them you'll feel squishier on a WE as they don't get as much free parry as a WH and you miss out on the absorb tactic (which is decent). Though from what I've seen playing against WE's in T4 and limited experience on my WH in T4 it seems the playing field levels out in that regard. Sure WH's get a lot of parry if they want it but the extra mobility from Swift Pursuit will equal in some survivability against any kiters and it feels like that's a bigger boon. I have also seen Sacrifices Rewarded be very valuable for WE's in Witchbrew builds (since you're not losing that much damage, it feels like other specs can't really afford a tactic slot).

Performance - If you compare the two in combat you'll notice that WH's have higher front (EW/Abso) and backloaded burst (with BaL) because of finishers being better and bullets adding burst (at least in this state of the game, with easier to cap STR and more crit WE's might outperform them in the frontloaded burst with PA, aka Shebali, Tropik & co.). However if the finisher gets avoided in any way (parry, cleansed BaL) you're toast, WH's feel very streaky in that regard. They also feel worse in brawling, they just run out of steam easier than WE's who can spec Witchbrew and keep going for days with AP gain tactics (if needed), while WH's rely on Feinted Positioning CD much more (which they can't reduce unlike WE's) and have very little AP gain. And while Inquisitor's Fury and Flowing Accusations/Prolonged Confession help a bit with brawling it's nothing compared to Taste of Blood.

Then there's the consistency when comparing bullets and kisses, with kisses providing both more consistent damage and utility (Ini/heal debuff or AP). WE finishers also tend to be two hits so while they can get parried it's much rarer for both the hits to get parried and makes for consistent damage and kiss proccing. And there's Witchbrew for steady, inevitable damage (Imma just stand over here and kill you with Witchbrew+Kiss procs on my throwing daggers). Sure Abso spam with Flowing Accusations will seem OP in lower tiers but when the bullet damage falls off it stops being that good.


That being said, If I were you I'd go with what my heart says.

I prefer the WH as playing a WE just makes me feel... dirty...