[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[peterthepan3]

Considering you have 1 engineer per group on 2 wb . 8 engineer heal then .
On the other side same numbers (2 wb) and let's have another rdps in each group of destro
So basically a sorc / squig / magus . Does this additional rdps would make more than 1300 dmg every 3 second (one tick of a keg on 9 target) . A sorc would do way more dmg than the heal of a keg . A tinkerer with 300 Bs and low range would have insignfiant dps so not balancing the rdps on destro side . Sorry i am at work too, cannot write a lot and my English is not good enough to explain everything I think exactly hope you undertand my post

I think you have incorrectly said something though - my situation includes the most basic use of tinkerer, I do not understand why this Engineer is required to have only 300 BS? with just keg picked up, engi can build a strong rifle or grenadier build, the healing numbers I provided are Toolltip listed while wearing Merc gear on a RR 50 engi. That engi could be stacking BS or WS.


Using the comparison you provided, a sorc would be using Pit of Shades from around the corner, similar to how the Napalm would be use to harass the backlines as well as front lines.

Unlike the Kegs, Pit of Shades cannot stack, the reason why is it became OP when involving higher numbers of players.

So once again, I am seeing no reason why there should not be a cap on Keg Stacking.

In fact, it feels like its a great idea to actively test it on the live server with a Stack Limit (Is this technically even possible?)

Because there is yet to be made an argument from a premade/organised WB perspective to support the view that stacking kegs is a problem for them.

[Grunbag]

Considering you have 1 engineer per group on 2 wb . 8 engineer heal then .
On the other side same numbers (2 wb) and let's have another rdps in each group of destro
So basically a sorc / squig / magus . Does this additional rdps would make more than 1300 dmg every 3 second (one tick of a keg on 9 target) . A sorc would do way more dmg than the heal of a keg . A tinkerer with 300 Bs and low range would have insignfiant dps so not balancing the rdps on destro side . Sorry i am at work too, cannot write a lot and my English is not good enough to explain everything I think exactly hope you undertand my post

I think you have incorrectly said something though - my situation includes the most basic use of tinkerer, I do not understand why this Engineer is required to have only 300 BS? with just keg picked up, engi can build a strong rifle or grenadier build, the healing numbers I provided are Toolltip listed while wearing Merc gear on a RR 50 engi. That engi could be stacking BS or WS.


Using the comparison you provided, a sorc would be using Pit of Shades from around the corner, similar to how the Napalm would be use to harass the backlines as well as front lines.

Unlike the Kegs, Pit of Shades cannot stack, the reason why is it became OP when involving higher numbers of players.

So once again, I am seeing no reason why there should not be a cap on Keg Stacking.

In fact, it feels like its a great idea to actively test it on the live server with a Stack Limit (Is this technically even possible?)

I am taking the exemole of a tinkerer (support spec) cause they are the ones that can make the biggest engineer heal : they sacrifice Bs for Def stats to stand in melre where keg heal is better .
In a lord room a Grenadier /sniper would stand in stairs to prevent taking damages , cause they don't have huge def stats and would die faster in melee . So are not healing a lot compared to a tinkerer . Plus , Rifleman and grenadier usually don't spam keg cause it broke their rotations and use 35 ap , spamming heal require ap tactic from tinkerer path and only tinkerer are taking it.

[Morf]

Imo to much thought going into various situations to justify why kegs are fine or need a nerf.
If you have spent countless hours/days etc playing this game in various different situations you will know kegs can be the difference between winning or losing and can also do jack **** for you, the same can be said for many skills, this shouldnt mean the skill needs a nerf.

Kegs are not omg overpowered abilities that some ppl claim they are.

[Glorian]

There are engis with kegs in keep Sieges since T3.
And I was in the 7 hour siege of Caledor. Well the last 4 hours and wanted actually to be online only 1. But Avocetti hold the alliance warband together and destro came back time after time.
We had two engies above outer ramp. Pumping grenades and m4 on ramp. When they came through I was behind the corner and putting AoE on them.

The thing was, the lord room has one broader door instead of two smaller ones. Two smaller ones are harder to defend.

And Avo made it sure the pugs where not scattered around the keep but in correct positions.

[porkstar]

Why is it not okay to introduce a limit to stacking of kegs in order to reduce the scale issue in keep defenses?

I think because for a roaming warband, having 2-3 or more engies is still a legit composition if a WB would like to do this. I think decreasing from nine to six people healed but still stack is a better place to start since it is a keep defense issue.

Also, I don't remember what is the case, do engineers get renown for keg heals? If they do and you remove stacking, you would also have to remove the renown gain otherwise the strongest engie heal would get all the purple rain.

[StormX2]

Considering you have 1 engineer per group on 2 wb . 8 engineer heal then .
On the other side same numbers (2 wb) and let's have another rdps in each group of destro
So basically a sorc / squig / magus . Does this additional rdps would make more than 1300 dmg every 3 second (one tick of a keg on 9 target) . A sorc would do way more dmg than the heal of a keg . A tinkerer with 300 Bs and low range would have insignfiant dps so not balancing the rdps on destro side . Sorry i am at work too, cannot write a lot and my English is not good enough to explain everything I think exactly hope you undertand my post

I think you have incorrectly said something though - my situation includes the most basic use of tinkerer, I do not understand why this Engineer is required to have only 300 BS? with just keg picked up, engi can build a strong rifle or grenadier build, the healing numbers I provided are Toolltip listed while wearing Merc gear on a RR 50 engi. That engi could be stacking BS or WS.


Using the comparison you provided, a sorc would be using Pit of Shades from around the corner, similar to how the Napalm would be use to harass the backlines as well as front lines.

Unlike the Kegs, Pit of Shades cannot stack, the reason why is it became OP when involving higher numbers of players.

So once again, I am seeing no reason why there should not be a cap on Keg Stacking.

In fact, it feels like its a great idea to actively test it on the live server with a Stack Limit (Is this technically even possible?)

I am taking the exemole of a tinkerer (support spec) cause they are the ones that can make the biggest engineer heal : they sacrifice Bs for Def stats to stand in melre where keg heal is better .
In a lord room a Grenadier /sniper would stand in stairs to prevent taking damages , cause they don't have huge def stats and would die faster in melee . So are not healing a lot compared to a tinkerer . Plus , Rifleman and grenadier usually don't spam keg cause it broke their rotations and use 35 ap , spamming heal require ap tactic from tinkerer path and only tinkerer are taking it.

either stick to my scenario or dont reply to it please.

[faiden]

Can we do some theory crafting about how much a keg can heal?
The keg can heal roughly 300 each 3 sec depending on WP etc.
The cooldown is 15 sec and it last for 10 sec
So have in mind that a second keg can be placed while the first one is still upp for double tick (hence stacking)
Also it takes 1-2 sec for a keg to be placed

Lets take the Magus: Aegis of orange fire that can base heal for 1500 each 60 sec.

Now how much would the keg heal 1 person for 60 sec not including crit heals or healing bonuses from Runepreists etc.

Now multiply that with 9 and we have some big numbers. (Yes i know it randomly heals and also overheals)

[Grunbag]

Why is it not okay to introduce a limit to stacking of kegs in order to reduce the scale issue in keep defenses?

Because there is no issue, until someone can prove that a 10 keg engi WB can beat the destro WB i mentioned.

Why are we even using a 10 Engi WB as an example for a Large Scale issue?

Strictly discussing Keep Defense here and Large number, so Id like to use a more standard setup.

Lets say 2 warbands vs 2 warbands, pretty standard group makeups, with order using 1 engi per individual party.

At the very least it seems that an engi, up tinkerer until keg, has about barely under 300 health per 3 seconds right? If each one of them goes the same way (maybe some up in rifleman, or some up in grenadier for the napalm). Each of those, 8 total Engi;s, can place Kegs at or near the lord room without any real consequence other than having to be in range of potential fire, the AP cost and the time to deploy it.

Now on average, the people in the lord room, would be a mix of Tanks, M/RDPS Single Target and AoE etc. Strictly looking at what the keg can do alone, 8 x Kegs with 9 random targets (sometimes the same, sometimes full health) can heal what, 72 targets? In the Lords Room, How many people out of 48 would actually be in that lord room, in range of the kegs? I cannot guess what the average really would be, so just going to throw out an arbitrary number of 15 people in the Lord Room, attempting to fight and disrupt Destro.

the 8 x Kegs are now healing between only 15 people, in or out of party, with or without damage, that is a potential for a nice and easy 2400 in health, every 3 seconds, regardless of whether that Engi is even in a party or a warband in the first place.

Now since we have standard party builds, at the very least a healer or 2 in each party. Those kegs can be seen as providing additional heals where your healers might not have been able to. It's like a Free HoT, allowing the actual Healers to sit on top floor, cranking out AoE heals (AM with Wild Healing, full Will Power stack anyone?) without even having to LoS team member for a HoT or direct heal, as the only people realistically taking damage are on the lord room, and in range of those kegs. I see the Stackable Kegs as helping promote crap gameplay, of 1 button spamming on 3rd floor, with the rare los st heal being tossed.

This is why I believe that a change to how keg can interact with players can be a good thing. What is the right change? Well I don't really know... I agree that a cap on the number of Stackable Kegs could definitely make it fair. Is this even possible? Can this even be done? Is it either All Kegs can Stack, or No Kegs can stack? Similar to Pit of Shades?

Changing how many kegs can stack on each other in the same area will not effect game play in 6v6 or any other small man situation (while barely changing things in the Pug SC's), but will greatly help when it comes to larger scale fights, especially those in a small area.

With this all being said, I do not see why Engi's are vehemently opposed to a stack cap.





I am at work, ive been writing this on and off while doing many other things and apologize for anything I may have missed. I am writing this as an everyday player who does play both sides. I will as per recommendations (or maybe, a requirement from this Thread?) Be playing Engineer for a little while to see it from the perspective of the Engineer, as I have already seen it from the perspective of the Front Line KOTBS huddled in the Lord room.

Ok so followING your post . Taking basic rifleman / grenadier which have low def stats and high dps .
Inside lord room they won't stand long enough alive to spam keg like you wrote . They won't place their keg properly to heal correctly 9 players (rdps usually stay in stair to not take too much aoe dmg)
You only show how much a keg placed properly can heal , supposing it only heal low health player / and that the engineer stay alibe long enough to spam his keg . A rifleman or à grenadier would not have a high heal rate as you wrote , they use a lot of AP for their rotation, they won't break their rotation (2sec cas time for a keg), they don't use ap tactic to counter it .
Of you want to have an idea of engineer (rifleman / grenadier) stats you can check sc result you'll ser that only tinkerer got a lot of heal stats, Rifleman and grenadier don't spam it and they are not right placed to spam a 30 feet hot

[Forwe]

StormX2(I'm not quoting the post, because it's a bit big, and I don't want to clog the page too much): Grunbag is taking into considerations only Tinkerer Engies, because, if you were to play as Rifleman Engi with Keg, and tried to stand anywhere near the frontlines, so that it can heal the tanks holding the door, you'd get killed really easily. I'm maining a Sniper, and I die from just the random AoE's + Magi Mist.
Not to mention, if you want to do anything useful as a Sniper(which, afaik, is the most popular build among engies), you have to stand on keep walls or towers to have access to Destro healers or RDPS's, and thus your keg will only heal you, other snipers, and random SW's who stand near you.
If you were to stay near your tanks, you'd force your healers to keep healing you, because of the AoE damage flying around, and you won't be able to do your role of damaging squishies, because most of them are either out of LoS, or behind tanks which are takin up most of your screen's space
(Sorry if my reply is a bit incoherent, trying my best while tired ^^)

[porkstar]

Just a thought. Can we get some immune GMs to come and obverse these keep defenses and make note of the number of kegs? This could be done over the course of a few weeks. I think Gramps will volunteer.